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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Prime Minister has come under pressure from two of the jewels in the crown of the out campaign – Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.  The Justice Secretary and the Mayor of London have teamed up to warn that staying in the European Union could, they say, threaten the UK’s security.  Well I am joined now by the former Chancellor Lord Lamont,  he’s announced he will be voting to leave the European Union and a very good morning to you Lord Lamont.  Just a broad reflection about what’s going on in your party, it’s quite extraordinary isn’t it to have two senior figures so diametrically opposed to the Prime Minister’s position because he has used it as one of the central planks of his campaign that we will be safer with the European Union.

LORD LAMONT: Well this is a referendum, obviously it opens up arguments between the parties.  I think it’s got to be kept civil but I don't think it’s sensational, there are disagreements between members of the cabinet and the Prime Minister, that’s going to be inevitable when there is the referendum.  

DM: Some of the language used though, particularly in that article by the Justice Secretary Michael Gove, when he talks about the European Union and its encouragement of fascism, of Hitler worshippers, well this is an organisation that the Prime Minister supports us staying in.

LORD LAMONT: Yes, but I think Michael Gove is referring very specifically to Greece and you were discussing that earlier and the rise of Golden Dawn and fascism.  There is no doubt – one of your guests was saying where’s the evidence but there’s no doubt at all the rise of Golden Dawn is directly linked to the sado-austerity, if I can put it that way, that was imposed on Greece and it was  when those policies were implemented that you got this massive shift to the right.  You got a massive shift to the left as well.  One of the points is that there is always…

DM: Do you think we’d see fascism grow in the UK if we stayed in the European Union?

LORD LAMONT: I don’t think that was what Michael Gove was saying.  I think he was saying that the euro in particular, and I strongly agree with this, has actually increased rather than diminished tensions between countries.  You have seen extremist movements in southern Europe growing up in response to the euro, there’s no doubt about that, it’s a fact.

DM: Do you think the Prime Minister is blind to it then?

LORD LAMONT: Well the Prime Minister is talking about … we’re talking, I think Michael Gove was talking about what’s going on in the eurozone.

DM: But it doesn’t matter whether it’s the eurozone or not, we have a very proud history, as nobody needs reminding about, of confronting fascism in Europe, shouldn’t we be doing more about it?

LORD LAMONT: I think this business of talking about the eurozone is relevant in one sense because the eurozone, the euro is to be the currency of the EU, everyone is obliged to join the euro when they join the EU.  Eventually Britain, and perhaps Sweden, will be the only two countries not in the euro.  The question then is, does it make sense to belong to an organisation whose central centre is actually the eurozone, where everyone is concentrating on what is happening in the eurozone?  Does it make sense for Britain, which has an entirely different destination, to be linked to this, that’s the question.

DM: This is just illustrative of the divides that are going to take place over the next three and a half months and have already taken place, do you see the party and the government genuinely being able to knit itself back together under David Cameron after this, whatever the result?

LORD LAMONT: Yes, I do actually.  I think people are very conscious of what happened in the 90s and Conservative backbenchers don’t want to go back to that but at the same time they do want to have a debate.  I think the Conservative party and the country is obviously more eurosceptic than the Cabinet are and there will be a very robust argument.  Given that the Prime Minister has called this referendum, and a lot of people appreciate that even if they disagree with the Prime Minister’s stance, we appreciate that he has given the party and the country a referendum.  I think after it is over, let’s say remain win, I think then there ought to be a reconciliation, people ought to say well thank you to the Prime Minister for having had this referendum, and let’s back him.

DM: Okay, and let’s follow this through. If your side win and as you say, you want the Prime Minister to stay on, he has said quite openly that he would then invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which will mean that Britain is out of the European within two years, whatever happens in terms of renegotiating trade deals and our new relationship with the European Union …

LORD LAMONT: Well that’s not quite correct.

DM: Well it’s a slope that leads us out of the EU within two years, isn’t it?

LORD LAMONT: Article 50 gives you two years which is extendable, gives you two years in which everything remains absolutely the same.  Britain is a member of the EU, it participates in all decisions in the EU except those decisions about what terms should be offered to Britain.  You don’t fall off a cliff after two years for this reason – all the other countries, and particularly Germany, need to know the terms in which they can sell to their largest market.  Their largest market is Britain, the largest market for German cars is Britain, bigger than the United States – they need to know the terms and so it’s in both sides essential need to have an agreement.

DM: But would it be necessary to instantly invoke this Article?  Couldn’t you wait a bit, wouldn’t you want to see that and then, you know, continue the negotiations in that period?

LORD LAMONT: There are different ways of doing it.  You could just repeal the European Communities Act and then decide to invoke Article 50 later but I don’t see the problem with Article 50 and given it’s what the EU expects I would go down that route but I don't think it’s a great trap for Britain.  

DM: Boris Johnson was on the Marr Show this morning saying that a vote to leave gives  Britain wriggle room.  If the vote is to stay, that’s it, we know what the deal is, it’s what the Prime Minister negotiated and there is going to be no major reform of the European Union.  Do you regard it as that, an opportunity then to continue the negotiations?

LORD LAMONT: I think one has to assume that out is out but it’s possible, it will have a profound effect on the EU.  I think the EU will particularly if there is a vote to come out, be anxious about foreign policy cooperation and I see no reason why Britain shouldn’t cooperate on foreign policy.  If Britain leaves the EU has lost somewhere between a half and two-thirds of its military capability, I would think we would want to continue for example the close cooperation we have with France on military matters and foreign policy.  I don’t see leave as meaning we are going to walk away into the Atlantic and have nothing to do with Europe.  

DM: But could there be grounds, people are saying … could there be grounds for a second referendum not about rejoining the EU on renegotiated positions, that’s done and dusted in this referendum but of course there are questions about do you want a Swiss deal, do you want a Norwegian deal, do you want to stand alone and do all your own deals or do you want a Canadian deal?  Could there be grounds then to ask the British public about what kind of relationship the British people want with the EU?

LORD LAMONT: Well I think there would be an argument that if you could negotiate another deal of saying let’s put it to the people, is this satisfactory?  I think all this talk about Norway and Switzerland is just a trap by the yes campaign.  Obviously there would be a special British deal.  One of the things people never ever say about the EU is that the United States sells more to Europe than we do and it actually sells more in services than we do.

DM: Well that’s not particularly surprising given the size of the United States economy.

LORD LAMONT: Yes but just let me repeat, it sells a bigger quantity and nobody say, oh how does America do that without being part of it?  They actually sell more services than we do, so does China as well.  

DM: So just to reiterate that point, you say there might be grounds for another referendum on whatever deal that Britain gets to in two years, six years, however long it takes?

LORD LAMONT: It’s not going to take six years.   Look …

DM: Let’s say two years but there might be grounds for another referendum?

LORD LAMONT: All this talk, this is the other side deliberately making it … I remember when we joined it took Edward Heath under two years to negotiate Britain’s entry and he wasn’t just negotiating on behalf of Britain, he was negotiating – I forget how many countries there are in the Commonwealth, 20, 30? – Australia, New Zealand, India, all these countries, he had to negotiate on their behalf as well and their terms …

DM: It’s not so much the timescale, it’s the idea that there might be another choice for the people to make.

LORD LAMONT: Look, there might.  I think that will be decided, it’s not being decided now but there would be a debate about that I’m sure.

DM: Lord Lamont, very good to see you, thank you very much indeed for your thought.