ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now unless Theresa May surprises us with a snap general election, the first big vote of 2017 will be for locally elected mayors, significant power and money will be devolved but is the system transparent enough to stop mistakes being made.  Well Parliament’s prestigious Public Accounts Committee has some concerns, its Chair, the Labour MP Meg Hillier, joins me now and a very good morning to you, Meg Hillier.  This is kind of slipping under the radar given what else we are discussing at the moment and as I was saying in the introduction there, we have got huge powers and huge amounts of money being devolved to the regions and you’re concerned aren’t you about the oversight and the transparency.

MEG HILLIER: That’s right.  As you say, it’s slipping by, a lot of citizens out there if you stopped them in the high street in Wolverhampton or Solihull or somewhere, they wouldn’t really know necessarily that it’s coming and one of the questions that’s got to be asked is when that money is devolved, who is actually going to be accountable for it?  The Treasury thinks it’s the Mayor but there are kind of more complicated structures than that and this is also a really critical issue.  When government passes money down to local areas to spend, it has got to be clear that it is enough money for that area to deliver what it’s supposed to be delivering and it could be who is going to be the arbiter if there is a disagreement between a Mayor and the government about how they spend the money.

DM: A lot of people I suppose certainly outside those areas and within those areas as well, explain to us what the structure is in place when we are getting those mayors?  I suppose the most high profile one people are talking about is the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham amongst the contenders there.  What is the oversight process?  In London the Mayor has the London Assembly, what do they have in other areas?

MEG HILLIER: Well there’s a combined authority in each of these areas, so that’s the local authorities in those areas will be establishing their combined authority, so that’s mostly the leaders.  They are beginning to recruit staff but it is very patchy and very thin at the moment so there isn’t for example the equivalent of a Public Accounts Committee in those areas or even anything like that and of course we lost the Audit Commission a few years ago because of government reforms and changes to the way audits are done locally so there is a kind of gap really between where government goes and then it’s passed over and I bet you if anyone in any of those areas wanted to follow the money, it would be very hard to do.

DM: Could we potentially be in a situation where we have these Mayors with huge powers, huge budgets and they can do things which – and I’m not suggesting any of the current candidates would go this way but we think about other countries, you think about Toronto, you think about …

MEG HILLIER: Well we have to protect for the mad, bad, yes.

DM: … where it’s been seen there can be huge abuses of power.

MEG HILLIER: Well the idea is that the combined authorities will be a bit of a check on that and so there’s going to be I think a tussle immediately there but the key thing is if government is passing it down, they need to be clear that those accountability structures are in place, that it’s easy for a citizen to follow the money and not just say it is the case without proving the point.  But I think there is also something incumbent on Mayors here, they need to set out their stall at election time and the citizens, the voters need to ask them how am I as a citizen going to know what you’re spending the money on?  I think we should be clear it is actually as much money, it sounds like a lot of money but it is only a certain amount of central government funding that’s going down but I’m sure though Mayors will ask for more so getting these structures in place so you can follow the money is really important now and I think we need to be thinking about it at this point as well.

DM: You made a very interesting point early on, and of course it’s very pertinent at the moment in terms of the discussion we’re having about social care and already the relationship between central government funds and there being enough money around amongst the local authorities to provide that social care provision, is that an area you could have concerns about under the new system?

MEG HILLIER: Absolutely, it’s no good saying we’re passing the money and it’s all going to be fine if there then is a problem down the line, who is going to be the decision maker?  Government says, well we’ve given you the money, it’s over to you and if there’s an issue in that local area how are they going to be sure there’s enough money?  There’s some freedoms on business rates and local tax raising but it’s not some panacea.  Even this recent announcement about social care, 6% on the precept is very different amounts of money in different areas, it depends how much council tax is coming in from those areas to begin with so it’s quite complex but the simple message is, if you’re a citizen in those areas really ask your mayoral candidate how are they going to make sure you can follow what’s going on and those Mayors need to make sure – and the combined authorities – that they have got a clear approach so that you can look it up, if you want to know how that money is being spent from central government but government also can’t be let off the hook, they can’t just pass it down the line and say we’ve devolving, giving power away, great, but they’ve got to make sure they know what’s happening.

DM: Just why is it happening, people are going to be asking.  Have you looked into the relationship, is there a direct correlation between devolving powers, devolving money for enterprise partnerships and things like that, and economic growth?  Because that’s what’s meant to happen.

MEG HILLIER: Well there’s a very moot point on that in that no one really knows.  Only one of our core cities, Bristol, actually contributes back to the Exchequer so any new change might bring big improvements but we don’t know that for sure and with LETS we’ve seen some real concerns, particularly around transparency.  5% of them don’t produce any financial information and nearly nine in ten don’t publish the money that they are paying their senior staff, that’s taxpayers money.  That if you like is a sort of litmus test for us, if LETS are doing it like that we’ve got to be clear that Mayors, who are elected at least so you’ve got that electable accountability, don’t follow the same approach.  It’s not just free money, it’s our money coming from central government to be spent in our own areas on things that matter to us but if you don’t know how it’s being spent, you can’t follow that.

DM: And lastly, can I ask you as a Labour MP, your views on the wave – or maybe that’s too strong a word but the number of strikes that seem to be taking place timed to have maximum impact on the run up to Christmas?  Do you think your party should be taking a stronger line on the unions?

MEG HILLIER: Well I think it is absolutely right that people should have the right to strike but I think it is a very unfortunate combination for people who are travelling, workers at a particularly difficult time of year and I think that all trade unions, even though they are fighting for their rights, need to really think about the impact on the people they are actually there to serve, their customers or their passengers and I think there needs to be a bit of a wake-up call about the impact on hard working people who are trying to get to work or go on holiday and I think if they’re not careful they could be shooting themselves in the foot.

DM: Meg Hillier, very good to see you, thank you very much indeed.