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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well we just heard from the Eurosceptic side of the debate, well a new group Conservatives for Reform in Europe, has been created to back David Cameron’s renegotiations and lead the fight to stay in the EU.  I am joined now by its leader Nick Herbert, very good to see you Mr Herbert, listening very closely I know there to Lord Lawson.  Do you feel … I mean Lord Lawson, I asked him there, you have been given a head start, those within your party that disagree with you and think the Prime Minister is not going to get anything worthwhile and we should vote to leave, they are not allowed to speak out properly yet?  

NICK HERBERT: Well ministers are not meant to speaking out but of course the rest of us can.  The reason I thought that it was so important to start this group is that there are some people in this country who will want to say let’s stay in the European Union regardless, just as they said let’s join the euro regardless and I thought they were wrong about that at the time and set up a campaign to say no, we should not join the euro, that would have been very bad for our economy but that we should say in the single market.  Then there are another group that want to leave come what may and for some of them it is their lifelong ambition to leave but I think there is a very large group of people in the country, and certainly within the Conservative party, who have no love for the European Union, have some concerns about it actually – about the growth in the regulation and issues like competitiveness and certainly issues of great public concern like migration, that we feel quite strongly must be addressed.  So we want reform in the European Union and provided that there is significant reform, we would then be willing to say yes, the choice is that we should stay in but I don't think that we are unconditional supporters of the European Union and …

DM: No, that’s actually interesting what you are saying there then because I suppose the popular view, and you know more about your own party of course than I do, is the sense that within the Conservative party especially is that everyone has made up their minds, they are either in or out whatever the Prime Minister gets.  You are actually saying something very different and there are a lot of your colleagues who are looking very closely at what the Prime Minister brings back from Brussels and will vote according to that because of course the Prime Minister hasn’t yet said which way he’ll go.

NICK HERBERT: Exactly, the Prime Minister has said that he rules nothing out and that’s important.  It is very important that our European partners know that, that there is a very substantial body of people who want to be in a position to say yes, we’ll stay in but only if we get the vital reforms that we need.  I think if we do, Britain could be in a very advantageous position because we would find that we were outside of the Eurozone and we would be protected from the deeper integration that countries like Germany and France want to do to protect their currency, the euro, that’s been a big concern but we would be in the single market.  That is a market of 500 million people, it is the world’s greatest market and it is a real issue about whether we would have anything like the same kind of advantages for our businesses if we were forced outside that.

DM: But you have got to be prepared to say, given what you’ve just said, you have got to be prepared to say to me that if the Prime Minister doesn’t get enough you’d be prepared to join Lord Lawson.  

NICK HERBERT: I said this morning and I said last year, and many of my colleagues feel the same way, that if the deal was not satisfactory we would be put in the position where we would be willing to contemplate leaving and the Prime Minister has said he rules nothing out.  It is important that people understand that but if we could get this deal and address the issues that people do mind about, like the draw of people from within the European Union in terms of migration and the Prime Minister has said he wants to tackle that by reducing the amount of time that they can …

DM: Would that be a deal breaker?  That is one of the key issues that the public are going to [inaudible], the four year freeze on benefits, we’re hearing that that might already be in the bag.  

NICK HERBERT: To tackle that kind of issue I think would be absolutely fundamental because it is key to public concern and I think it would be a very popular move to say look, we are not going to pay in-work benefits which can be worth thousands of pounds a year, to people who are coming over having never paid into the system.  That would be an issue of fairness but it would also I think help to reduce the pull factor for people coming over from within the European Union.  If we can address that, if we can address this issue of the fact that at the moment that ever closer union is part of the formal ambition of the European Union and the Prime Minister has said he wants an agreement that that will stop, that Britain will not be committed to ever closer union.  If we can get a formal commitment to deregulation and to increase competitiveness …

DM: Just staying with migration, sorry to throw it in there, there is a suggestion in some papers today that the emergency brake on EU migration, EU member state migration, that might be back on the table.  

NICK HERBERT: The Prime Minister has said he is open minded about the mechanism and if there are alternative mechanisms they should be looked at and that will all be part of the process of renegotiation.  I think what I feel and what I am sure many people in the country will feel is what they want is the issue brought back under control, they want to reduce the numbers that are coming from within the EU and if it is an emergency brake rather than addressing the pull factor or it is both of those things, then that would be good.  It’s the package that matters and remember, those that really want to leave the European Union, they are very quick to say that that the reforms don’t add up to anything but that’s not what our European partners are saying at all and the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, when he responded to the Prime Minister’s initial letter saying look, this is what we must have, said these are significant and far-reaching reforms, some of which will be very difficult.  So this will be a tough negotiation and my judgement is that if we get broadly the totality of these reforms which includes more of a say for national parliaments as well, which is very important, not only will we have stopped this relentless drive to deeper unity and integration…

DM: You have made the point.  

NICK HERBERT: … we’ll have actually turned it round as well and that is particularly important I think to our constituent.   

DM: I just wanted to ask you lastly about how the group came about, was it formed organically and autonomously or have there been discussions with Number 10?  One would suspect they would not be displeased with this forming.  

NICK HERBERT: Of course I discussed this with the Prime Minister and the group wants to support his renegotiation.  We’re saying we think he is doing the right thing by promising a referendum.  Lots of people said that there would never be a referendum, we wouldn’t deliver on that promise – we did.  A lot of people said that …

DM: I’ve got to just ask you, are you then the Prime Minister’s instrument?  Will you go the way the Prime Minister says or could you ultimately say okay, Prime Minister, you think you’ve got enough, we don’t?

NICK HERBERT: No, every Conservative member of parliament will make up their own mind and our group will make up its own mind.  We have had lots of discussions with members of parliament and peers and members of the party more broadly, what they want is a voice for their view which I think is the view that doesn’t say we’ll go in and stay in come what may or we’ll leave come what may but that actually we want reform and if there is serious reform in the European Union then we would be willing to stay.  I think we speak for a lot of people in the party and the country by taking that view.

DM: Okay, Mr Herbert, very good to see you and thank you very much indeed.  Nick Herbert there.