ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, you may have been with us earlier in the programme when we heard from the Secretary of State for Scotland saying a second referendum on independence would not be held for Scotland.  Well let’s put that straightaway to the First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, who joins me now from Glasgow, a very good morning to you, First Minister.  Well you may have heard it loud and clear, I certainly did, you can talk all you like about a second independence referendum but you’re not getting one.

NICOLA STURGEON: Well I didn’t hear the Secretary of State earlier on but the Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell, he’s the only Conservative MP in the whole of Scotland and I think people across Scotland would probably raise an eyebrow at that sort of dictatorial attitude.  If the Scottish parliament chooses to put that question again to the people of Scotland then that is the right of the Scottish parliament to do so and when push came to shove, I don't think a Conservative party – who of course have caused the circumstances in which this is being considered again – would in reality stand in the way of that.  But you know my focus just now is on trying to do everything I can to protect Scotland’s interests in these circumstances, trying to work with others to avoid a hard Brexit for the whole UK, putting forward reasonable proposals that would help Scotland to stay in the single market even if the rest of the UK leaves but if all of that fails, yes, I’m being very clear, I think the people of Scotland would have the right at that point to decide whether they wanted to be taken out of the single market by the Conservative government or whether we wanted to opt to pursue a different path.

DM: Isn’t it all rather academic, First Minister, in that the people of Scotland can see all the facts in front of them right now and all the indications are that if you have a second independence referendum you’d lose, probably smash the SNP up, you’d probably have to resign, it would make David Cameron’s decision to hold an EU referendum look prudent.

NICOLA STURGEON: Well none of that I think is the case.  Clearly if there is at some point another independence referendum then of course we would as a country have to debate what we thought the best option and the best future was for us but of course the circumstances in which this question has been brought to the fore again is the circumstances of Brexit and continuing to be part of a UK that is determined against all economic considerations to leave the single market, despite the damage that will do to the economy, to jobs, to living standards, I’m not sure that when the reality of that starts to unfold that that is something that people will want to do because the implications of that are very severe, not just for Scotland of course but for the whole UK.  So this is about how we best protect Scottish interests, it’s about how we best secure for ourselves the ability to build a stronger and more secure future based on a sound economy because continuing to go down a path that’s taking us out of the single market is not going to help us do that.

DM: Okay, you keep mentioning that, First Minister, the single market and I noticed in your speech you said that again, that yes indeed the UK has a mandate to leave the European Union but no mandate to remove any part of the UK from the single market.  So therefore reading between the lines there, are you saying that Scotland could stay within the UK as it exits the EU as long as it maintains access to that single market?

NICOLA STURGEON: I said we would put forward proposals that would enable that to happen because I am seriously concerned, as I think everybody should be right now, that the UK  if it leaves the single market is taking a step off a cliff edge and I don’t want Scotland to have to go over that cliff edge as well so yes, we’ll put forward proposals over the next few weeks and seek to have these proposals as part of the UK’s Article 50 negotiating strategy that would allow Scotland to maintain its place in the single market and protect the jobs and the investment and the trade that all depend on that relationship.  If that is rejected by the UK government then of course the position that I’m putting forward is that Scotland would have the right then to consider whether to become independent but I think the ball very much at the moment is in Theresa May’s court.  She says she values the UK, she says – and Scotland has repeatedly been told we are an equal partner in the UK, well it’s time now to prove that, to prove that Scotland’s voice can be heard and our interests can be protected in the UK and I hope that’s a message Theresa May hears and responds to.

DM: Well if you got that so-called soft Brexit you would presumably still be part of a UK, and we heard at the Conservative party conference the other week, a UK that the Health Secretary wants to become self-sufficient, the NHS self-sufficient in British people and wants to institute a register of foreign nationals working for companies.  Do you think Scotland could opt out of those?

NICOLA STURGEON: Well some of the extra powers that we would require to have in order to maintain our place in the single market if we were still part of the UK would be powers such as immigration, greater flexibility over immigration but there is a bigger issue here I think which is about the kind of country we want to be.  I will not be the only person who was absolutely and utterly horrified at the language and the rhetoric that came out of the Conservative party conference last week.  We have people from other European countries living and working here in Scotland, in other parts of the UK, making a real contribution and we should value them for the contribution they make not on the basis of where they were born or what colour their passport happens to be.  Imagine how we would feel, given how many British citizens there are living in other parts of Europe, making a contribution, imagine how we would feel if they were being talked about in the way that the Conservative government here is talking about EU nationals or people from other countries living here, it is absolutely despicable and that’s a real worry that I have, that the right wing of the Conservative party right now are in the ascendency, they are hijacking the Brexit vote to turn it into the hardest of hard Brexit votes and I don’t believe a majority of people, not just in Scotland but across the UK, want to be part of a country that is insular, inward looking, closing our borders and sounding increasingly xenophobic.  There is a choice emerging here about the kind of country we want to be and those of us who want it to be progressive, open, internationalist, outward looking, really have to stand up and be counted.  

DM: Well you said in your speech and you more or less said it there, Scotland cannot trust the likes of Boris Johnson and Liam Fox to represent us.  When you read this letter that Boris Johnson wrote a couple of days before he came out for leave saying we should remain, does that confirm you in that statement, in that thinking?

NICOLA STURGEON: It doesn’t surprise me.  I don't think anybody really doubts that Boris Johnson was making a calculation in deciding which side of the Brexit argument to come down on that was based not on the merits of that argument but probably on what he thought was best for his own political advancement.  Of course as politicians we often weigh up different arguments so in a sense there is nothing surprising about that but I think Boris Johnson was making a calculation that was about his political interest and not about the interests of the country.  If you cast our minds back to the referendum after he had come out for the leave side, Boris Johnson said leaving the EU didn’t mean leaving the single market and that’s part of the reason why I say there is no mandate right now to take the UK out of the single market and I don’t believe there is a majority in the House of Commons for it either.

DM: Okay, so we know your overall thinking of the Conservative government but just within that narrow but very important focus, is there common cause to be made for your MPs in Westminster with those Conservatives who stick their head above the parapet and oppose a hard Brexit?

NICOLA STURGEON: Yes, absolutely, I’ve said very clearly that we will be working to try to build a common cause with Labour MPs, with Liberal Democrat MPs and with moderate Tories to try to forge a coalition, a majority in the House of Commons against a hard Brexit and the SNP will play a full part in that because as I have said repeatedly – and I am far from the only person saying this – Theresa May may have a mandate in England and Wales to leave the EU but I don't think she’s got a mandate to leave the single market.  It’s not just that she doesn’t have a mandate, I think the consequences of that would be ruinous for the economy and I think MPs who realise that and who see that there is no rational argument for that as well as no democratic argument for that, I think it’s time for them to stand up in the House of Commons, come together and try to stop it happening.

DM: And talk to me about that other common cause, the Mayor of London and you have been talking, Sadiq Khan, are you envisaging some kind of opt out or special status you might be able to get for Scotland, London, Northern Ireland?

NICOLA STURGEON: Well I can’t speak for London, for Mayor Khan and I am not going to try and speak for the other devolved administrations, I think there is common cause that we can forge between us, Northern Ireland of course also voted to stay in the EU, there is certainly a common cause in terms of making sure that the devolved administrations are fully heard in this process and that our views are properly listened to which Theresa May promised would be the case but there hasn’t been much evidence of it so far.  Yes, I think there could be common cause to try to keep those parts of the UK that don’t want to leave the EU or the single market, in there protecting their interests in that way.  So we will continue to talk to London, to Northern Ireland, to Wales, to Gibraltar which is also in a very difficult position because of this, to try to find that common ground where we can.  A week tomorrow I’ll be in London with the other devolved administrations meeting the Prime Minister and that really for me is a key moment because I think at that meeting we will find out if the Prime Minister is serious about involving the devolved administrations in a meaningful way.  I really hope she is but I think she has to demonstrate it next week.

DM: And lastly, First Minister, can I ask you about candidate Trump in the United States?  Of course he has got substantial business interests in Scotland, if you ever did achieve independence I guess he could have a Scottish passport through his mother. What do you make of these allegations, the so-called locker room allegations about his treatment of women?

NICOLA STURGEON: I’m horrified by them and I’m horrified not just at the comments that he has made or in some cases reportedly made, the things he has reportedly done but also the dismissal of that kind of language and those kind of attitudes as just locker room banter.  That is really misogyny at its worst and I think we have all got to stand up against that.  It’s not usual for politicians in other countries to comment on elections in other countries and certainly not for leaders of governments to do so, this is America’s election and it is up to America how it votes but how America votes, who is the President of America has implications for the rest of the world so I’m not going to try and beat about the bush here, I hope America doesn’t elect Donald Trump as President, I hope it elects Hillary Clinton.  I think she would be the better President for a whole variety of reasons but I also think it would be a really good moment to see America elect its first female President.

DM: And if he comes over to visit some of his golf courses, whether he is President or not, in the future comes over to Scotland, I don't know, if there were any complainants in Scotland do you think there would be a case for Police Scotland interviewing him?

NICOLA STURGEON: Look, I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here.  Obviously Police Scotland has an obligation to investigate any allegations of criminal activity wherever or whoever they may be by if it is committed in Scotland but I am not aware that that is the case so I think I would be taking speculation a bit too far to start to go into answering that question in any great detail.

DM: But nevertheless, on the basis of his comments on Muslims, you’d like to see him not allowed to come to the UK anyway.

NICOLA STURGEON: I took away his status as a Global Scot, the Global Scot Network is people who have connections to Scotland who then promote Scotland overseas.  He was appointed as a Global Scot by Jack McConnell when he was First Minister of Scotland, I rescinded that after he made the comments about Muslims because I didn’t think that was the kind of person that we should have promoting Scotland.  I am very clear about this, I abhor the comments and the views that Donald Trump has been making in this campaign but I recognise that it is for the people of America to decide who they want to be their President. I am just being pretty straight in my own view that I hope that is President Hillary Clinton and not President Donald Trump.

DM: Okay, First Minister, great to get your views, thank you very much indeed.