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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now to one of the big ramifications of the referendum campaign result, a second referendum on Scottish independence is very much on the table.  That came from Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, she announced yesterday as well that her cabinet will begin immediate discussions with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU after Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain.  Well the First Minister joins me now from Glasgow, a very good morning to you.  First of all, just on what’s going on behind me, as you cast your eyes south of the border with no effective government and the opposition in disarray, how would you describe the situation?  

NICOLA STURGEON: Utter chaos, shambolic and frankly disgraceful.  At a time when the whole United Kingdom needs leadership probably more than it’s needed leadership in any part of the post-war period you have got the Conservative party and the Labour party completely abdicating responsibility. They are letting down people across England, across the entire UK and I look on in utter horror.  It is shameful and somebody needs to get their act together.  My responsibility of course is to provide leadership in Scotland and I am determined to do that, both to navigate a path through this situation created by the referendum, a situation not of my choosing but as we do that also to make sure that Scotland continues to be governed in a stable and effective way so that’s what I am entirely focused on as First Minister of Scotland and frankly I think that people in England deserve better from their political leadership than they are getting today.

DM: Share with us your thinking, and particularly for the vast majority of voters in Scotland who voted to remain within the European Union, flesh out for us the process by which you think the EU may be able to offer Scotland a way to stay within the EU without actually having to leave, hold an independence referendum and then rejoin?

NICOLA STURGEON: Well I don't know if that will be possible but what I am determined to do is to explore all possible options to give effect to how people in Scotland voted and to protect Scotland’s interests, to avoid us being taken out of the European Union against our will with all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences that that will entail.  So that’s my guiding principle, to protect Scotland’s interests.  I am not starting from the premise of saying it has got to be independence, I am starting from the premise of what do we need to do to protect Scotland’s interests but if it does appear to be obvious that the only way we can protect Scotland’s interests is by looking again at independence then that’s an option that Scotland has to have.  Of course a second independence referendum in these circumstances would not just be a rerun of the 2014 one because the context has completely changed, the UK that we voted to remain within in 2014 doesn’t exist anymore and of course what many people saw as the stability of the UK versus the unknown of independence in 2014 is completely different.  What we know for sure is that the UK faces real uncertainty and deeply damaging economic consequences of a Brexit so independence may be the best option of securing stability for Scotland and that’s an option that we must have the right to consider.

DM: You say it may be an option but just be explicit for us.  You don’t know the answer to it but is the question you are putting to the European Union, is there a way that Scotland can maintain its membership and maybe still stay part of the United Kingdom?

NICOLA STURGEON: Look, I will certainly be exploring that option amongst all options. We are in completely unchartered territory right now and I hear people saying, oh well when Article 50 is triggered this will be able to happen and that won’t be able to happen – the truth is none of us know, this is unprecedented, it’s never been done before and what will happen from now on will purely be a matter of negotiation.  My job is to negotiate on behalf of Scotland to try to get the best outcome for Scotland so nothing is off the table in that but my guiding principle is to try to give effect to the democratic will of the Scottish people as expressed on Thursday and to act in the best interests of Scotland.  As we go forward I’ll be honest with Scotland about the complexities we face, this is not going to be straightforward but I am absolutely determined to try to get us through this in a way that best protects our interests and to do it in a way that tries to unify people in Scotland because this situation is not of our making, we didn’t chose it but we have to deal with the reality we are now in.

DM: Tell me about your conversations with the other parts of the United Kingdom that voted to remain within the European Union with the Mayor of London and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.   

NICOLA STURGEON: Well I had discussions with a variety of different people across the UK in the wake of the result on Thursday. Sadiq Khan I spoke to on Friday morning, he is in a similar position to me.  Of course our interests are not identical and we may choose different paths in the times ahead but London voted to stay in the European Union as did Scotland and he is as anxious as I am about the prospect of London and me of Scotland being taken out of the single market with all of the consequences that that will entail so I think we are keen to work together to try to explore common interests where we can.  Northern Ireland of course is facing up to some very difficult consequences as a result of this vote, a different position in the sense that the Deputy First Minister’s position is different from the First Minister’s position but I want to make common cause with as many people as possible as we all try to navigate our way through a very difficult set of circumstances and Labour is in turmoil today and if I was in Labour in England – which I’m not obviously – but I would see Sadiq Khan as one of the few bright spots that Labour has just now.  I think he’s a class act and has been a real star since he was elected as the Mayor of London and I hope very much that I can work with him as we try to respectively serve the interests of the people we serve.

DM: I’m interested in those discussions you had with Martin McGuinness in Northern Ireland, one of his, Sinn Fein’s and other people’s fears are that there may have to be a physical border between Northern Ireland and the Republic if one country remains within the European Union and one isn’t, how does that then apply to Scotland, that idea?  If Scotland remained within the European Union as you want and England left, would you not need a physical border?

NICOLA STURGEON: I don’t want to see a border between Scotland and England in any circumstances but you raise a very good point, that almost regardless of what happens in the Scottish context some of these very real issues are going to have to be faced up to and resolved in the Irish context.  Now nobody can say that those in the Leave campaign weren’t warned of all of these consequences and I think people in Ireland should rightly be very concerned about the prospect of a border between North and South and I hope there is a way that can be found to avoid some of these consequences but these are consequences not of our making, not of Northern Ireland’s making – they voted to stay in as well but they are consequences that we will now have to deal with and what’s vital at this moment – this is the most difficult moment I think for the UK with the most serious consequences in the post-war period and what everybody needs right now is leadership, clear leadership.  Not leaders who pretend that the way forward is easy but leaders who are determined to lead us forward with purpose. Now Scotland has that, that is my promise to the people of Scotland and it’s about time the politicians in Westminster got their act together and provided that for the rest of the UK too.

DM: And leaders who of course have answers and do you have the answers – it was a must asked question during the last  independence referendum …  

NICOLA STURGEON: Dermot …  

DM: Well suggestions then, let me put it that way because I was going to ask you about the currency because of course last time we got the answer that you would stay within the sterling zone.  Things would be very different this time round, are you considering joining the euro or setting up an independent Scottish pound?  

NICOLA STURGEON: I will come back to the point of currency in a second so I’m not trying to dodge it but can I make another point first?  This is about, you say leaders have got to answer and of course if we get to the point of a second independence referendum we will have to have worked through all of these issues and have the answers there but no leader right now in trying to provide leadership should pretend that all of these answers exist right now because we have been placed into this unprecedented situation and what leaders have a duty to do right now with the people they serve is to navigate their way through these and find the best answers out of a difficult set of circumstances.  Now on currency, yes one of the most difficult issues of the 2014 referendum and of course it is an issue we have to work our way through this time too but we are in a very different situation if we are facing a second referendum.  This is not about Scotland wanting to leave anywhere, this is about Scotland wanting to stay and to protect the situation that we’ve got just now so if anything the moral case we’ve got for keeping our own pound and for keeping the circumstances we have right now is even stronger than it was in 2014.  Now what I’m going to do in the weeks and months that lie ahead is be very honest with the people of Scotland as we try to find a path through this, I’ll not pretend that situations that are difficult are easy or that answers that might take a bit of time to find can be conjured up instantaneously.  I am determined to lead Scotland forward in a way that finds the best way through this, in a way that unifies people in Scotland as much as possible and if that means we going to the people of Scotland over the next couple of years and saying in my honest opinion the best way for us to protect our future is to become an independent country than I will do that and I will seek to take a majority of people in Scotland with me.

DM: But what about the immediate future, First Minister?  We have the issue of Article 50, the process by which the United Kingdom would formally announce its intention to leave the European Union?  As that happens and your views on when it should be triggered but if and when it is triggered how closely Scotland in your view be represented at those talks and negotiations?

NICOLA STURGEON: Scotland has to be represented at every stage of this process and our interests have to be represented in every eventuality and I am determined that that will happen but a very important point I have to make is that I’m not going into this accepting as inevitable that Scotland is leaving the European Union because Scotland voted to stay in the European Union so my objective is not to find the best way of Scotland exiting the European Union, it’s to find a way for Scotland to stay in the European Union.  There are lots of things I would like to change about the European Union in the future …

DM: Are you saying you might already have cut a deal then with the European Union … ?  

NICOLA STURGEON: No, for goodness sake Dermot, the UK voted on Thursday, I think with the best will in the world if I had been able to cut a deal by Sunday then that would I think be rather surprising.  I’m not sitting here saying I have cut any deals with anybody, what I am saying is that as First Minister of Scotland I am going to do everything I can to give effect to the way the people of Scotland voted on Thursday and just to remind people, more than 60% of people voted to stay in the European Union, people in every single local authority area without exception voted to stay.  If I as First Minister simply shrugged my shoulders and said that I accepted as inevitable that regardless of that we were going to be removed from the European Union I wouldn’t be fit to be First Minister.  I am going to do everything I can to protect the interests of the country I am elected to lead.  

DM: Just to clarify that Article 50 question I put to you, it rather got I suppose at cross purposes during the delay on the line, what I was asking was that given the Prime Minister’s formulation, he believes that doesn’t need to be triggered perhaps until October, I’m not talking about a weekend, you would have several months then of Scottish discussions with the European Union.

NICOLA STURGEON: Of course, yes, absolutely.  I will be seeking to have discussions with European institutions, with other member states, as quickly as I possibly can.  I am not going to sit around waiting for the turmoil in Westminster to give way to some sort of order and leadership, my job now is to lead and to try and find a way forward for Scotland. I just think people across the rest of the UK are being badly let down right now.  The UK needs leadership right now and somebody is going to have to step up to the plate and deliver it.

DM: Good to talk to you First Minister, thank you very much indeed, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, there.