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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now this week’s Holyrood elections in Scotland have been described as the most important since devolution began in 1999.  From next year MSPs will have a set of new powers over benefits and income tax for instance. Now with the Scottish Nationalist Party comfortably ahead in the polls, Nicola Sturgeon looks all but guaranteed to settle in for another term as First Minister and she joins me now from Edinburgh, a very good morning to you First Minister.  You were listening to Tim Farron there and I just want to get your feelings in the European campaign, I know it’s the one but next but it’s been said in some quarters that the Remain camp, especially when it comes to that issue of getting the young vote out, they could do with you campaigning south of the border, have you got any plans to do that?

NICOLA STURGEON: I think I’ll focus my attentions, once we get the Scottish parliament elections out the way this week – and I should say, an SNP victory is not guaranteed, it will only happen if people come out to vote SNP on Thursday – but after that I will certainly enthusiastically and passionately campaign for an in vote in the referendum. I will do that principally in Scotland as you would expect me to.  If anybody across the rest of the UK is interested in listening to my views I’d be delighted but I wouldn’t presume to tell people in other parts of the UK how they should vote.  I do hope though that every part of the UK votes to stay in.  

DM: That’s interesting, you might have asked to venture south.  Now on the issue right in front of you, the vote in four days’ time, I mentioned there 1999 and the devolution settlement, now you and I know and you’ve watched it more closely than I did of course, it was never envisaged that Scotland would turn in effect into a one party state, do you ever feel that …

NICOLA STURGEON: Scotland is not a one party state.  There are several parties contesting this election.  

DM: Indeed they are but we know what’s going to happen in terms of who’s going to be First Minister and …

NICOLA STURGEON: Hold on a wee second, we don’t know that.  I don’t want to sound as though I am bickering with you for the sake of it here but we are four days away from an election and my message to people in Scotland is very clear.  Don’t assume that the SNP will win, it is not guaranteed, it is not inevitable, it only happens if people get out to vote on Thursday.  I believe the SNP is the right party to lead Scotland forward, I believe I am the best candidate for First Minister, we’ve got a manifesto bursting with ambition and ideas but that will only happen, we will only be able to implement that manifesto if people get out on Thursday and vote SNP and vote SNP with both of their votes.  The system we’ve got is not designed to give any party a majority, it’s a tall order to get that, it was a tall order five years ago and it will be a tall order this time too.

DM: Well that’s the point that I wanted to ask, whether you are in power or not, would it be good for Scotland to take on board ideas from all political quarters,  your willingness as leader of the SNP to co-operate with others?

NICOLA STURGEON: I’ve always been willing and will continue to be willing to hear ideas from all quarters, from all political parties and if I am elected as First Minister on Thursday then I will continue to do that.  Of course that also requires other parties to come forward with ideas and with constructive suggestions, it’s a two-way process but I want to really underline this point.  If – and it is an if – the SNP win the election on Thursday and if – and this is an even bigger if – we win that election with a majority, then that will because people in Scotland have voted for that in a democratic election.  We have got a vigorous campaign underway in Scotland right now, there are several parties contesting the election so if the SNP wins it is not a sign that we’ve become a one-party state, it’s a sign that people have democratically chosen the SNP to be its government and chosen me to be their First Minister.

DM: Would that be enough of  a springboard for a second independence referendum?  We seem to be talking about a lot of votes here but people want to know, you’ve often talked about the Scottish people making their desire clear to you to hold a second referendum and people are wondering what the actual mechanism would be.

NICOLA STURGEON: Well our manifesto set out … and I should say that the issue uppermost in people’s minds as we go into the final few days of the campaign are the future of our health service, our education system, our economy and these are issues on which we are putting forward I think the best ideas of any party in this election but on the question of independence, the manifesto makes it clear that Scotland will only have a second independence referendum, Scotland will only become independent if there is majority support that and my support for independence is not a secret, everybody knows that but Scotland will only become independent if a clear majority of people in Scotland are behind that.  If I can’t …

DM: But First Minister, sorry to interrupt, how do you determine that majority?   Do you have a referendum on having a referendum?  

NICOLA STURGEON: No, of course not.  We have to have a referendum if Scotland is going to become independent and if we get into that position, the mechanism, to go back to your question, is the same as it was the last time.  The Scottish parliament would have to legislate to have a referendum but I set out in our manifesto, the SNP has set out that we think a second referendum would only be justified, we would only have earned the right to ask that question if we see over a period of time clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority.  I think also the Scottish parliament should have the right to propose another referendum if there is a material change in circumstances  such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against our democratically expressed will.  So these are the circumstances we could have a second referendum but it will only happen if there is clear support for it.  

DM: Okay.  What do you make of this anti-Semitism row in Labour?  As a leader yourself who moved very swiftly to stamp it out when it raised its ugly head within your own party, what’s your view on how Mr Corbyn is handling it?   

NICOLA STURGEON: First of all I think all parties and all party leaders should avoid complacency or any suggestion that these things only arise in one party. We’ve all got to be absolutely firm in our determination to stamp out anti-Semitism and indeed to stamp out any racism or intolerance of any variety whatsoever. I do think like many others that Jeremy Corbyn perhaps needs to be a bit quicker and a bit firmer in dealing with these things.  I think Ken Livingstone’s comments during the week were beyond the pale and completely unacceptable and I don't think I’ve spoken to anybody who thinks otherwise there.  Now I’m glad that he has been suspended from the Labour party, clearly it is a matter for the Labour party what happens from here but I think all of us as leaders, as politicians have a duty to act when there is a requirement to act, not to assume it is somebody else’s problem and to always have a zero tolerance approach when it comes to anti-Semitism or any form of racism.  

DM: But do the words of the Israeli Ambassador to the UK apply to your party as well?  Mark Regev said today ‘The left is in denial about anti-Semitism’, this issue of conflating the activities of Jewish state with that of Jewish people?

NICOLA STURGEON: I think we have always got to be careful about that, I think it cuts both ways.  I think people have a legitimate right if they hold these views to criticise the actions of the Israeli government, I have many criticisms of the Israeli government but where it becomes unacceptable is where that becomes anti-Semitic or a criticism of Jewish people generally and I think we all have to be vigilant about that and we all have to be very careful about that and to challenge any instance where that happens.  I don’t sit here as a leader pointing the finger at the Labour party solely and saying it’s all a Labour party problem, although I do think there are issues that the Labour party has to address, but we’ve all got a responsibility.  I have spent time in this campaign, I’m sure many politicians have, talking to members of the Jewish community in Scotland and I will continue to do that.  One of the great things about Scotland and indeed I think one of the great things about the UK is its diversity and diversity should be seen as something we celebrate, it should be seen as a strength but we’ve got to always work at that and I think that’s something that all of us have to be mindful of.  

DM: First Minister, thank you very much indeed for your time, always great talking.  Nicola Sturgeon there, the SNP leader.