ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now there was a stark warning, wasn’t there, from President Obama last week that if Britain leaves the European Union it would be at the back of the queue, the President said, for a trade deal with the United States.  Now his most likely, or one of them, successors Hillary Clinton has weighed in echoing the President in her support for a vote to remain.  Well I’m joined now Penny Mordaunt, the Defence Minister, she’s backing Vote Leave and a very good morning to you Minister.  Well this coming from President Obama, we’ve heard that and now from one of his possible successors, they are not saying something they don’t believe.  Isn’t this very damaging for your view?

PENNY MORDAUNT: Well I think that their comments are at best hollow, at worst completely contradictory.  Obama and Hillary aren’t standing on a platform of giving up their sovereignty, they’re not giving up their right to make laws, they’re not asking for their borders to be open – all the things that they are suggesting we do, so I think we have seen some reigning in of those comments, Obama has been on media saying no, our security arrangements would remain as they are so all of the threats on that front have proved not to be the case but also I would ask him to be a bit more optimistic, not just about what we can achieve as a nation but what his country can do as well.  I think his State Department has about 70,000 civil servants in it, I’m quite sure if we had a female President she would be able to multitask and I think that although they might be pessimistic because it’s taken them forty years to try and get to this position on a trade arrangement with the EU, the UK would be far more nimble.    

DM: But on that, and it is the heart of the economic argument isn’t it, on that you would accept wouldn’t you that the President of the United States probably knows more about you than his Department of Commerce, his Secretary of States and how they negotiate these deals and how long it takes.  When he says back of the queue, back of the line, it might take ten years, he’s not making it up.  

PENNY MORDAUNT: Well I thought this was what was so hollow about his remarks and I am particularly concerned  about our national security which obviously is a requirement for economic prosperity and trade.  He will know that our relationship with the US, in particular our intelligence sharing which is so vital to not just our security but Europe’s as well, is being chipped away at by rules coming out of Europe.  What is valued will endure and what we need to have is all our eyes on the things that matter, the operational effectiveness of our ability to keep our citizens safe.  The EU is counter to that and what we need to do is to get back to strong bilateral relationships with member states.  If we had an EU army or an EU intelligence agency it is not going to lead to better operational cooperation, that is done between member states and that is what we need to focus on.  

DM: Do you think the Mayor of London, fellow Leave campaigner of course, Boris Johnson is right, that it has something to do with Mr Obama’s Kenyan ancestry, that he seems to have it in for the UK?

PENNY MORDAUNT: No, I think this is … I think that comment came from an article that he wrote, the start of an article where he was taking about, he was speculating as to why Obama had removed the bust of Winston Churchill from the Oval Office.  I think any accusation that Boris Johnson is somehow being unpleasant or racist or any of that is quite frankly incredibly insulting and also a sideshow to the issue.  

DM: But do you accept his analysis, that these are symbols of a President who is, you know, lukewarm to say the least about the United Kingdom?  

PENNY MORDAUNT: I think that the President has been very clear that he finds it more comfortable to deal with large blocks of nations but what he fails to appreciate or is not factoring into his narrative on his visit to the UK is that that is actually undermining our economic prosperity and our national security.  The fact that we don’t have a trade deal between the US and the EU because it has taken so long, it is so complicated, it’s so bureaucratic I think is a reason for us to assess whether our interests are better served taking back control of our ability to negotiate our own trade arrangements.  I think the UK would be much more nimble, I think we actually have a greater synergy in our approach to trade and commerce with the US than we do with many of our continental partners and I think that we would absolutely thrive with looser ties to the EU.     

DM: Can I just ask you about Boris Johnson, do you think that with this and other comments, he is doing a good job as one of the leaders of the Leave campaign, representing your view?  

PENNY MORDAUNT: Well we are out there making the arguments, we are the underdog in this fight but we believe what we say and I think the public are hungry for arguments, they are hungry for facts and those we have to get out there.  

DM: Even Nigel Farage, who made some similar comments a while back about President Obama, even Nigel Farage saying he is playing the man and not the ball on this one when talking about his ancestry.

PENNY MORDAUNT: No, but I think that was a paragraph opening up into an article containing all of the arguments about why he thinks Obama is wrong and he …

DM: So a rhetorical device?  Is that it?  

PENNY MORDAUNT: Yes, I think the Remain campaign are trying to focus on that to deflect from the serious arguments about the dangers, not just what we could get from leaving the EU but also the dangers of staying which as a Minister in defence and my counterpart, the Minister for Security, we are concerned about our ability to keep people safe.  We think we would have more powers to do that if we took back control of our borders, more scope if we took back control of our money, our finances and our ability to …

DM: But just on the job, what you have said about the Americans misunderstanding in your view of the UK in the Europe and particularly on the security issue, wouldn’t you find it very difficult then if the vote is to remain in the European Union, for you to stay in your post and be part of that crucial relationship of security, intelligence sharing, so much with the United States and you are telling me there you believe they’ve got it wrong?  

PENNY MORDAUNT: Well I think that most of the people that I work with in the US are very aware of these issues.  I think I would not be doing my job if I didn’t stand up and say I have grave concerns.  Other people may have different views and I’m not suggesting that …

DM: But would you keep making those concerns clear if the vote is to remain and you are back in collective responsibility, everybody in the media is going to know you are sitting in the department thinking I don’t believe in this.  

PENNY MORDAUNT: I will do everything I can to enhance our operational ability and the operational capability of our key partners in Europe to keep their citizens safe.  I would say that qualifies me to do this job, I think anyone that’s not prepared to do that and speak up when they think things are going wrong should not have that responsibility.

DM: Just a last thought on the story we’ve been reporting this morning on Sky News that the Ministry of Defence exemption to prosecution when it comes to deaths, and a large number of deaths, on training exercises.  The Commons Defence Committee is saying it must change to allow prosecutions.  

PENNY MORDAUNT: Yes, we will look at that report very carefully, we gave evidence to it.  We are looking at a whole range of things in the Department related to those issues and that’s looking at training but we are also looking at what happens in combat and I for one am uncomfortable that we use MoD funds to argue against people who’ve been injured, against people – maybe next of kin for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice – rather than pay them large amounts of compensation.  I think maybe we should not be in court with those people, we should just be paying them higher amounts of compensation and if we are going to have things like the principle of combat immunity, we ought to be looking at doing that.  But clearly we will consult on all these things.  

DM: Well thank you very much indeed, Minister, good to see you.  Penny Mordaunt there, Defence Minister.