ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Prime Minister has warned there’ll be no turning back from a vote to leave the European Union as one of the latest polls shows the in camp edging ahead this weekend.  The survey which was carried out after the murder of MP Jo Cox suggests Remain has now opened up about a three point lead. I’m joined now by the Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, a very good morning to you Foreign Secretary and let’s start obviously with Jo Cox and given how hard she campaigned, particularly about the plight of so many Syrians, you must have had dealings with her quite extensively in the House of Commons.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well of course she was a persistent campaigner on the issue of Syrian refugees and a successful campaigner because she made a real difference to the government’s policy on Syrian refugees, she knew what she wanted, she knew what she thought was right, she went for it and she knew how to make a difference.

DM: But no doubt she’d be harrying you more, she’d be saying you’re not doing enough, she’d be using the words of the former Archbishop of Canterbury today, Rowan Williams, saying Britain isn’t doing enough about this huge humanitarian crisis.

PHILIP HAMMOND: We are doing a huge amount of course including being the second largest contributor to the humanitarian relief effort in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan, the countries that have most of the Syrian refugees but I think the thing about Jo is that she did make her point, she made it very effectively, but she made it in the right way, a very appropriate way.  She knew how to persuade an that’s the key thing in politics.

DM: What do you think will happen in the House of Commons tomorrow when MPs gather to pay tribute to her, suggestions that MPs will mingle freely on the benches irrespective of party affiliation.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well this is something that goes way beyond party affiliation and of course because the House of Commons was in recess when this terrible tragedy happened last week, this is the first time that MPs will have come together and had a chance to discuss these events and to mourn Jo’s loss collectively so I think it will be a very emotional time, very emotional moment.

DM: And do you think things will change?  The Chancellor writing this morning about the need for less inflammatory rhetoric when it comes to not just the campaign we’re going through at the moment but indeed for political discourse in general?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well I hope so because this is about the kind of country we want to be, the kind of country we want to live in, a country I would hope that will be an open outward facing country, a country where people can express different views and can have a civilised debate about their different views but where we always resolve those differences respectfully and within the bounds of our democracy and I think what’s so shocking about this incident is that we all expect that those boundaries will be respected, that whatever party we’re in, whatever point of view we take, we’ll have our discussion, people will make their decision in line with our democratic traditions and when somebody steps out of those boundaries and tries to use violence or force or coercion, it really brings us up short and makes us think about what kind of a country we are.

DM: We’ve got this from the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, and I wonder having what you just said there, Foreign Secretary, if you agree absolutely with this: “The business of politics” says Mr Brown, “has become more about the exploitation of fears than the advancement of hope.”

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well hope is a very important emotion but of course people also need to understand the risks that they are taking with certain courses of action and the politicians will always express views, and I think that is absolutely right, it’s about how we express them. I think we also have to think about the relationship between politicians promoting their arguments and experts who produce the real evidence behind them.  I don't think it’s good enough for politicians just to dismiss the experts, we have to take the information that the experts give us and we have to build our arguments on that expert information.

DM: But taking that Gordon Brown quotation, and let’s relate it to the Remain campaign and the many charges you know over the last few months that have been made about it being all about Project Fear, you’ve accepted there that you have been pointing out the risks, some would say that is the exploitation of fear side, and there hasn’t really been very much advancement of hope, of enthusiasm about remaining within the European Union from your side.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Of course we’ve got an obligation to point out the risks because we would be taking some very big risks with Britain’s economy, with Britain’s place in the world, with the kind of country Britain is and people need to understand that but there are also huge upsides to remaining inside the European Union.  With the deal that the Prime Minister has negotiated we get the best of both worlds and in the next phase of development of the European single market it will be Britain that benefits hugely because we’re an economy that is now overwhelmingly producing services and that is the next phase of single market development in the European Union, that will take Britain’s economy to a new level, allow us to grow faster than our European Union partners and that means more jobs, more prosperity, more personal financial security for people in this country.

DM: But can you tell us, Foreign Secretary, and I think you mentioned there about the concessions that the Prime Minister got from the European Union, some people are saying it wasn’t enough, and thinking of parallels with the Scottish independence referendum in the week before, that solemn vow coming from the Prime Minister and others about new powers being devolved to the Scottish parliament, is anything more possibly going to emerge from the European Union in terms of what the Prime Minister was asking for this week, before the vote?

PHILIP HAMMOND: I think the deal we’ve got is the deal we’ve got and we understand very clearly the terms.  What will happen of course after the vote on Thursday if we vote to remain is that we will then put that deal into practice and that will mean for example the ability to stop people coming newly to the UK from claiming British benefits for four years, it will allow us to be more restrictive about who can come in in terms of people with criminal convictions, it will give British judges more flexibility and more discretion.  All of those things will have a positive impact but we will only be able to implement them if we vote to remain part of the European Union.

DM: But nothing more emerging from the European Union?  I don't know about the contacts between the Foreign Office and the EU but nothing more?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Look, the deal we’ve got is set out, it will allow us to do the things that we said we will do, it’s very clear that Britain will not be part of ever closer political union, we’ll be able to remain outside the euro, we’ll be able to remain outside the Schengen border free area, we’ll retain our rebate, we’ll retain the pound, all of the things that the British people want confirmed have been confirmed and yet we will still have access to this single market of 500 million people which is what is driving our economic growth, driving the fantastic creation of jobs we’ve seen in this country, two and a half million jobs over the last six years.

DM: Let’s just return to the tone of the campaigns, I mean you talked there about how you accept that the rhetoric needs to be toned down and the exploitation of fears, but the Prime Minister doesn’t seem to be hearing that today does he when he accuses the Leave side of being like people who are ignoring a mechanic who tell them they are getting into a car with dodgy brakes and steering and then accuses of them of using three falsehoods as the basis of their campaign, it’s pretty strong stuff.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well look, the point the Prime Minister was making is that we all have to listen to experts, whether it’s medical doctors, car mechanics, electricians looking the wiring in our house, sometimes we don’t like what they tell us …

DM: But if you get into a car as dodgy as that you’re going to kill yourself, it’s a pretty strong warning.

PHILIP HAMMOND: That’s exactly the point, when we hear the experts and not just in this case one expert but the overwhelming majority of experts warning us that there will be certain consequences from a course of action, we the politicians have to accept that, we have to accept that guidance from the experts.  Now we can choose to override it, we can choose to ignore it but we mustn’t dismiss the experts and on the question of the leaflets that are being distributed even now as we sit here by the Leave campaign, I’m sorry to say that they are based on three falsehoods – that Turkey is about to join the European Union, which is simply untrue as Boris Johnson himself acknowledged just three months ago; that we send £350 million a week to the European Union and that we would be able to save and spend in our public services all that money if we left – simply untrue as all the independent experts have set out and that there will be a European army, we have a veto and we will never allow a European army if we remain part of the European Union.

DM: And what about elements of the Leave side again talking about the fears being raised, this breaking point poster, what do you make of this long line of refugees crossing from Croatia into Slovenia I believe, what did you make of that poster?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well look, I think this goes to the question of what kind of country we want to be and I hope that Britain will remain an outward looking country, engaged with the world, a fast growing economy, an economy that will in the future look towards being higher skilled, higher waged economy …

DM: But just the poster itself and the tone of the campaign?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well personally I didn’t like the tone of that poster but people will form their own views about it.  The important issue here is that we are being invited to take a huge risk with Britain’s economic future, with the jobs and the opportunities for the next generation.

DM: But George Osborne says it’s vile, that it’s really going too far.  Even Michael Gove, I heard him this morning, on the opposite side of the campaign to you, saying he shuddered when he saw it.

PHILIP HAMMOND: I think that’s the key point, that even people on the Leave campaign are uncomfortable with that poster.  

DM: That’s not as strong as shuddered and vile, you’re just uncomfortable with it.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well I didn’t like the poster.  The tone of the debate I would like to see conducted over the next few days, let me just say I didn’t like the poster.  

DM: Okay, I just wanted to put one quotation to you from March 2nd, a speech you made, and turn it round slightly.  You talked about, we were discussing the Leave campaign, you said “They need to be honest, to say they are prepared to sacrifice jobs and growth in order to get a clamp down on migration in order to stop paying into the EU.”  You are not being honest though with the British public are you if you turn that round?  You are in effect saying that we have to accept migration and keep paying into the EU for the jobs and growth that they provide, you have never been explicit about migration.

PHILIP HAMMOND: First of all, all the experts are clear that we get more out of being in the European Union, more benefit to our economy, more funding to our public services through being in the European Union than we would if we left…

DM: But we have to accept high migration from the European Union and those payments, we have to accept that, that’s the price we have to pay?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Look, we accept there’s an issue around migration and we have to deal with it.  One of the ways we will deal with it is through the changes that the Prime Minister negotiated in February which will allow us to be more selective about who is allowed to come in, in terms of people with criminal records and so on, people who pose any kind of risk to this country and will also allow us to deny British benefits to those newly arriving, and that’s not a small issue because somebody coming here with two children, taking a full time job on minimum wages could expect to get up to about £9000 of in work benefits on top of what they earn.  Take that away and their calculation about the attractiveness of coming to Britain will change significantly.

DM: Last thoughts about next Friday, if it is to be Leave, is it also leave for the Prime Minister?

PHILIP HAMMOND: No, the Prime Minister has been very clear that the government will continue, he will continue with a commitment to deliver the manifesto pledges that we made at the 2015 general election.  We have got a lot of work to do, a lot of stuff to do to deliver our economic plan which is the basis on which we are creating jobs, we are creating better standards of living in Britain, we’re protecting pensions, all the good things that we want to do depend on delivering that economic plan.

DM: Okay, so the PM stays, what about Boris Johnson given his role on the Leave campaign, if the vote is to remain would you welcome him as a big asset to the party, he should be given a big job in cabinet?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Well he is a big asset to the party.

DM: Would you like to see him given a big cabinet job?

PHILIP HAMMOND: Boris Johnson is a big asset to the Conservative party.  Jobs in the cabinet, jobs in the government are for the Prime Minister to decide on and he will no doubt consider carefully after the campaign is over how he is going to bring the Conservative party back together, put this campaign behind us and focus the party back on delivering our economic plan for Britain, to protect our public services, protect our pensions, protect our standard of living and create opportunities for our young people in the future.  

DM: It’s been said Boris Johnson might enjoy himself as Foreign Secretary.

PHILIP HAMMOND: Look, I can’t comment on individual jobs within the cabinet, that is absolutely an issue for the Prime Minister.

DM: Okay Foreign Secretary, thank you very much indeed.  Philip Hammond there.