ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  Well the deal has been done and the date has been set and with yesterday’s Cabinet meeting heralding the end of so-called collective responsibility, six members of the Prime Minister’s top team have already out taked themselves and now it is down to Boris Johnson whose intervention could of course be crucial.  My next guest Priti Patel is one of those ministers who has come out in favour of leaving the European Union, she’s been tipped as the star of the leave campaign with the suggestion that she could be the one to lead it and as you can see she is with me now, a very good morning to you.  We have just been discussing your colleague Boris Johnson, do you hope he will join your campaign?

PRITI PATEL:     Well look actually I think that’s a decision for him to make and do you know, I feel for him right now with a lot of the speculation that’s taking place because I can only speak from my own personal position, coming to the decision that I have come to as well.  It is difficult, it is absolutely difficult and it is only one that you can make yourself on the basis of what you really believe in when it comes to Britain’s place in Europe, Britain’s place in the world.  Of course that is something that Boris Johnson is going to have to work out himself.  

DM: But you’ve always believe in it haven’t you?  

PRITI PATEL: I have done, I’m quoted, I’m on the record, 20 years ago I was campaigning for a referendum and I have to say I think there is a great tribute to be paid to David Cameron as the Conservative Prime Minister who has done exactly what our Conservative manifesto said it would do which was to deliver the British public that referendum on our relationship with the European Union.  

DM: But we saw the sleepless nights and the hours he put in in Brussels and you said before he went there that it was a waste of time, he was going naked into the conference chamber.  

PRITI PATEL:     Well what I’d say about the renegotiation, he has invested a lot of time and effort, he has been determined and steadfast in that renegotiation and I pay tribute to him on that, I really do.  I personally believe that this is the best deal that he was able to get and you know, his role now, he is very clear about this as he went into those renegotiations as well, that he was starting from that position that he wanted to stay in the European Union and he wanted to get a new settlement to then campaign to stay in the European Union.  

DM: So barking up the wrong tree, you always said didn’t you, he wasn’t asking for enough?

PRITI PATEL: He has always been clear about that and I have utmost respect for him for that, I really do and I think he has conducted himself incredibly well throughout this renegotiation and in getting the deal.

DM: You are saying all that and so you should, I mean he’s been very good to you hasn’t he, during the course of your career.  

PRITI PATEL:     Well he’s our Prime Minister.  

DM: Indeed and he promoted you within the party and within the government, do you not feel a bit disloyal?  

PRITI PATEL:  I have to say coming to the decision I have done, it is not an easy one to make and it has been uncomfortable as well in making that decision but this is a position that I firmly believe in.  I started off saying as well I have got long-standing, long-held views on Europe, the institutions of Europe but fundamentally as well though I have always believed there has always been a democratic deficit as well in Britain’s relationship with the European Union and that’s why it is important that we have this referendum.  We have a Conservative Prime Minister that has delivered this referendum or will be delivering a referendum on June 23rd but it’s not up to us though as politicians.  I firmly believe this, I’ve said this for many, many years – the British public should decide, it is their referendum which is why I don't think it is about politicians and political personalities at all, I think ultimately this referendum will bring forth the arguments, the public will be able to decide and rightly so.  It is their choice and their decision, the question in this referendum is pretty binary – we’re either in or we’re out – and that’s a choice that people will have to make.  

DM: So the binary choice about the Prime Minister’s future, would you feel any regret if ultimately – and we don’t know how the campaign will pan out, we obviously don’t know the result – but if it does ultimately end the Prime Minister’s career?

PRITI PATEL:  Our Prime Minister is here to stay, let’s be very clear about this.  This is a referendum …

DM: Win or lose?

PRITI PATEL: This is a referendum that the Conservative party are delivering, we stated that in our manifesto very clearly.  This is not about the future of David Cameron, we should be absolutely clear about this.  This is a referendum that he and our government have given to the British public, the public will decide as to which way we go.  He himself said this morning as well when he was on television, he will conduct the wishes of the British public with whatever the decision is.  


DM: He did, he said he would do his best but you know in his heart he wants to stay in the European Union.  If you get what you want, would you see him as the best man to dismantle the UK’s relationship with the European Union?

PRITI PATEL:  He is our Prime Minister and he is here, he will stay, I am absolutely convinced about that and I don't think this is about … as I said, this is about Europe and Britain’s relationship with Europe.  This is not about David Cameron and this isn’t about politicians and which way they are going to go either.  

DM: It’s interesting that you say this is not about personalities, you are very relaxed then about George Galloway being on your side of the campaign?  

PRITI PATEL:  Well actually George Galloway has his own views but at the end of the day this is for the British public to make a decision.

DM: But are you glad to have him articulating the argument to leave the European Union?

PRITI PATEL: Let’s be clear about this, there are a wide range of personalities and individuals associated with both campaigns.  They will make their points and that is up to them but ultimately this is for the British public to decide and I should just say as well, I don't think it is for politicians to be overstating their roles and their positions and their points.  I have firmly said my belief that for far too long successive governments have lectured the British public in terms of Europe and the direction of travel …

DM: Including your own?  
PRITI PATEL:     Successive governments and at the same time successive governments have denied the British public a voice and their say when it comes to Britain’s relationship with the European Union.  So I put this down, I trust the British public, I trust the people to decide and we will go ultimately with the choice and decision that they make.   

DM: But on the people who articulate the campaigns on both sides, you’ve just relatively recently won the unexpected majority in the general election and the mastermind behind the campaign, Lynton Crosby, cut to the quick and said it’s very simple, it’s about leadership, our leader is better than their leader, Ed Miliband, at the time. It was about personalities, the British public made their decision partly on the basis of who they thought was best placed to take us through the future and that was David Cameron and you’ve been on this programme talking to me about how David Cameron was the right man but now it doesn’t matter who leads.

PRITI PATEL:     This is very different to a general election.  The leadership of your country …

DM: But surely that’s a more binary choice, you just said it.   

PRITI PATEL: Well this is a binary choice in the referendum question itself, whether or not we stay in or leave the European Union.  The two campaigns will articulate the case, they will make the points over the next 124 days and during that time of the campaign throughout the country – this isn’t just the media and the Westminster bubble as well talking about the issues that matter around Britain’s relationship with Europe and our place in the world.  This will be for the public to decide, they themselves …

DM: So on your side of the campaigns you think it’s fine to have so many different leave campaigns, Grassroots Out, Leave.eu, Leave EU.

PRITI PATEL: There will be designation.  

DM: There will be a designation by the Electoral Commission so are you saying that it is important to have a very clear message articulated by a few people at the top or it doesn’t matter, we can have the Tower of Babel, it doesn’t matter what is said?

PRITI PATEL:     No, I take the view very clearly that of course sponsoring to the designated campaign period and the group is designated and has its official role.  What I am saying is I don't think the voice will be just that of politicians, there will be business voices, there will be members of the public from around the country as well, this isn’t a London and the South East referendum, this is a nationwide campaign and ultimately this is the choice of Britain to decide which is why having the wide ranges of voices, which are not dominated by politicians, I think is incredibly important.  

DM: Are you saying that when it comes to business leaders with a degree of information, with insider knowledge, have you got some big beasts do you think to come out in the leave campaign?  

PRITI PATEL:     I welcome all business voices to this debate and I don't think it is about big business again.  

DM: But watch this space?  No, it’s not about big business it’s about all of us but should we watch this space, have you got some inside information?  

PRITI PATEL:     Well we are at the start of the campaign right now, there will be many voices that come to the table and express their views and that’s exactly what we should expect in the campaign and when it comes to businesses I don't think this campaign I don't think this campaign should be dominated by the voice of big business or corporate voices, there are plenty of small businesses out there.  In my constituency alone 85% of my constituents are employed by SMEs, those SMEs speak to me about Europe a lot so there will be a range of voices in this campaign.

DM: And do you think more members of your own party, I hear someone from the Whips office is about to declare, more senior members?

PRITI PATEL: My own personal sense is that there are many of my colleagues that have long-held views on Europe and Britain’s relationship with the European Union.  They will I’m sure express themselves over the next few days as well.  

DM: And let me ask you this, as a unionist with a small u and it was articulated again today, it’s been pretty explicit from the Scottish National Party for a long time, that if the result you want is achieved for the United Kingdom to leave the EU, then Scotland if it did vote individually to remain within the European Union, there would then be grounds for another referendum on Scottish independence. Would you see that as a price that’s worth paying, the breakup of the United Kingdom to get the UK, most of it, out of the EU?

PRITI PATEL:   Well look, first of all, when it comes to Britain leaving the European Union, I don't think we should talk ourselves down one bit at all.  I’m an internationalist and I believe we have a lot we can do in terms of growing our country, our economy and flourishing outside of the European Union, so let me start with that point as well.  I think Scotland is very different actually because the Scottish journey has evolved since the independence referendum, let’s be clear about that, we’ve had the Smith Commission and there are discussions taking place in government right now still in terms of delivering the Smith Commission, we have the Scotland Bill.  So delivering Smith is absolutely a priority of this government and I think that is the current focus, it’s not about speculating about a future referendum or what will come afterwards.  The focus of this government is quite rightly working with the Scottish government on devolving the powers that the Smith Commission very clearly stated should be devolved.  That is the discussion that is taking place today, this isn’t about a future discussion or a future referendum.

DM: But the Scots, the First Minister is explicit that depending on the outcome there may well be strong grounds for another referendum on Scottish independence.

PRITI PATEL: Well she is speculating, she also has her own election.

DM: Well we are sitting here speculating about the outcome of the EU referendum, of course that’s what we do, we’re looking forward to the future, it’s what you do.

PRITI PATEL: We should also make the case as well and make the point that in Scotland alone they have their own elections this year too and at the same time that against the backdrop of delivering the Smith Commission as well which is incredibly important for the government here in Westminster but also for the Scottish government as well, that is the focus right now.

DM: Okay, Priti Patel, very good to see you, thank you very much indeed.  And you don’t want to lead one of these campaigns, I’ve just got to ask?

PRITI PATEL: I’m here as a supporter and a voice for the Out campaign.

DM: One of the many voices, okay, very good to see you.  Thank you very much indeed.