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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Prime Minister is continuing his continental charm offensive with visits to Poland and Denmark at the end of last week but how are his renegotiations going down in Europe?  Well I’m joined now by Radek Sikorski who served as Poland’s Foreign Minister under Donald Tusk, Lord Roger Liddle was Special Advisor on European Matters to both Tony Blair and the then President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barosso and Nina Trentman is the UK Correspondent for the German newspaper, Die Welt and a very good morning to you all.  Mr Sikorski, we’ll go straight to you, how did it go down in Poland then?  What was the Polish view on the Prime Minister’s visit and what he is asking the EU for?

RADEK SIKORSKI: Well there is a great deal of sympathy for the United Kingdom in Poland, we are traditional allies and there is up to one million Poles in this country including myself in the past so I think it is proof of Polish sympathy for Britain but also David Cameron’s negotiating skills, that he managed to persuade a government which is a Eurosceptic nationalist government, to sacrifice the interests of some future settlers in this country for the sake of helping David Cameron win his referendum.  David Cameron got a better deal out of the EU than I had anticipated and he has clearly been very persuasive with the Polish government.

DM: So what is the calculation in Poland then?  You say eager to help the Prime Minister but there must be a limit to that eagerness given that many, many of Poland’s nationals living in the UK are the ones who are going to suffer.

RADEK SIKORSKI: Well of course, you have two Eurosceptic parties, the Conservatives and Law and Justice, they are equally suspicious of Brussels, equally suspicious of the European Union as a political project but they have directly opposite interests.  David Cameron needs to show that there will be fewer migrants and Law and Justice needs to show that they are sticking up for Poles abroad so it is remarkable that they have managed to come to a compromise.  

DM: Radek Sikorski, I know you know the Prime Minister well, do you actually see that happening, that should the deal be signed off and no small matter of winning a referendum, that then the Prime Minister and the leadership of the government could get more deeply involved within the European Union?

RADEK SIKORSKI: I would hope so.  The EU is a force multiplier for all its members, including the UK.  All of the EU’s members on the world stage, including the largest members, are small to medium sized countries, we can only stabilise our neighbourhood both in the south and in the east if we act together and Britain could shine in leading Europe’s foreign, hopefully even defence policy.  When you have opt outs like the UK you need to convince the others that you care about this union because to lead you have to be a fully engaged member. This is an area where I think the UK needs Europe and Europe needs the UK and I hope there is a contingency plan at Number Ten both for a referendum lost but also for a referendum won which takes the UK back into the position of leadership.  

DM: Where would a country like Poland stand if the pressure increases from your next door neighbour, the economic superpower, to say right, you’ve got to take more [refugees] as well?  

RADEK SIKORSKI: Well Poland has pledged to take in 7000 but I believe that Germany, for noble reasons, made two mistakes, one of procedure and one of substance.  Procedure, namely that the Schengen group does not belong to Germany, it belongs to all of its members and once you take people in they can move around the group as they please so these should be collective decisions. Secondly, I believe the sequencing was wrong.  First you need to secure the perimeter, then when people have a confidence of the size of the problem they will be much more willing to help in dealing with it.  It was the fear of the unlimited number of refugees coming in and being resettled that spooked some governments and some societies and played into election campaigns in a most unfortunate manner.  

DM: We are coming to the end of the discussion so I just want to put forward the question, should a referendum happen in June and the answer is no, Britain is leaving, would there be deep sadness and regret within the high halls of European Union and would Germany say well we tried to help you, you’re off, okay, we move on?  And the million plus Poles in the United Kingdom, they would become foreign nationals.

RADEK SIKORSKI: I don’t think anybody would affect the rights of people who are already here.  I can tell you that if Britain left, from my personal point of view I would be able to buy things at Heathrow duty free again!

DM: I’m not talking about repatriation but you’d certainly be free to withhold benefits as much as you liked.  

RADEK SIKORSKI: You are free to do that today as much as you like provided you do it in a non-discriminatory manner.  If Britain left I think on the continent we would go for a joint European security policy, we would create a much tighter area of integration around that but if you left, there is also a very dangerous scenario because I think it would encourage the populists in France and if Marine Le Pen withheld from the Kremlin financial help, wins in France then the future of the European Union is at stake.   

DM: We’re out of time but I can say without any fear of contradiction that this is going to be discussed at great length in the future. Thank you all very much indeed.