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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, the Chancellor George Osborne has said that any military action in Syria would require parliamentary approval, he says the Assad regime needs to be tackled at source so what does that actually mean in practice?  Gerald Howarth joins me now from Aldershot in Hampshire, he’s a Conservative MP and former Defence Minister of course, a very good morning to you.  First of all that point being made by the UN Special Representative Peter Sutherland about the United Kingdom, he said it’s not bound by treaties to take more refugees but it should be honour bound to do so, that there should be a common European solution to take more people, what do you think?

GERALD HOWARTH:  Well good morning, Dermot.  I’ve just come from the Royal Garrison Church of Aldershot, the cathedral church of the British Army, where of course this issue has been at the forefront of our minds and of course the British people are full of compassion, that is our history, that is part of our culture and I think it is very important that people like Peter Sutherland acknowledge what the United Kingdom has done already.  We have contributed £1000 million of British taxpayers money to the refugees in the camps outside Syria, helping countries like Jordan which really have suffered enormously in the burden that they are carrying.  We’ve done that, that’s more than all the European countries put together, second only to bilateral aid given by the United States and I think today perhaps we should just shed a tear for the 453 bereaved families whose sons and daughters gave their lives from this country to help the poor people of Afghanistan and where they have made a fundamental difference to the lives of the people in Afghanistan.  So the idea that Britain has not stepped up to the plate I think is completely false.  The question of course arises is what about numbers?  First and foremost the Prime Minister is absolutely right, that if we take in a lot of people within the European borders then all we will do is to encourage even more people to come, not just from this turbulent region but from other turbulent regions in the world.  There is a limit on what we can take.  We have the highest population density between Britain, France and Germany, we have 374 in England and Wales whereas France has 119 per square kilometre.  So there are massive issues here and we have to approach this carefully in a measured fashion and not simply respond to the appalling and harrowing pictures that we’ve seen in our newspapers and on television.  As far as Syria is concerned, I’m afraid to say I told the Prime Minister a year ago, I’m a bit of heretic on this.  There is no way we are going to be able to intervene militarily in Syria without provoking some sort of response from Syria’s principle ally Russia and I think the time has now come when we must address the issue at source and the source of the problem is Syria.  I think therefore what we need to do is to get round the table with President Putin, with President Assad – and I know a lot of people will say it is disgraceful that we should be suggesting talking to President Assad but the fact is that here in this country we talked to the IRA and we sorted out the problems in Northern Ireland.  Teheran should be involved as well and what are the other Arab countries doing to deal with these displaced persons?  What is Saudi Arabia doing, what are the Gulf States doing?  This is not just a European issue, I agree with Peter Sutherland on that, but I’m afraid to say I think simply saying we will open our doors in the manner perhaps we did before the Second World War, is not the answer.  It’s an easy answer, it sounds compassionate but I do not think it is the right answer and I am very supportive of the Prime Minister’s stand on this.

DM: Okay, well let’s stay with the issue of military intervention because the last time there was a discussion about it, the vote in the House of Commons was about taking, as you described there, military action against the Assad regime. What we are talking about now is something quite different, there is already British military involvement in attacks against ISIL, Islamic State, in Iraq, it doesn’t go over the borders of Syria at the moment when some of our allies actually do.  It’s about joining in that operation.  

GERALD HOWARTH: Yes, I think there is a case for military strikes and I encouraged the Prime Minister a year ago and he is naturally cautious as a result of that vote two years’ ago but I did encourage military strikes particularly in Iraq because if ISIL were to take over in Iraq that would be catastrophic for us and the entire region so I think those strikes are correct, I think that limited strikes in Syria may be helpful in dealing with ISIL but at the end of the day the man who is most likely to deal with ISIL in Syria is President Assad and I know this sounds difficult but we are faced with a very difficult situation.  Four million people driven out of Syria and I think we are in a strong position to try and resolve that issue, we have competent government in this country, we have a competent Foreign Secretary in Philip Hammond and I think that the Prime Minister is very keen that the United Kingdom should play its role in the world.  I think we should do that, I think we should get round a table and see how we can beat ISIL because that is the threat that we need to address.

DM: Well we hear the Americans are very concerned at the moment about increasing Russian involvement in terms of personnel and military hardware to prop up the Assad regime.  Given the analysis you’ve offered us today is that something we should support?  

GERALD HOWARTH: Well I think that it’s a fact, it’s an indisputable fact that President Putin has made it crystal clear there are no circumstances in which he is going to desert President Assad.  That is the realpolitik of the situation we face so we can either ignore it and say we will just carry on and ignore Russia or we can try, as I say, and get round a table and see if there is a solution to the problem. I’ve met the leaders of the opposition in Syria and I’m afraid I am very sceptical.  They have one thing in common, they want to slit Assad’s throat, once they’ve slit Assad’s throat I suspect they will be at each other’s throats.  I do not see that there is a competent opposition in place and surely one of the lessons we must have learnt from Iraq and from Libya is you need to ensure that there is a competent replacement government in place before you start destabilising that which already exists.  I know that President Assad stands accused of some pretty heinous crimes but so did the IRA, we talked to the IRA, we need to talk to him because I don't think stand off military air strikes are the solution I’m afraid.  

DM: Okay, Sir Gerald, thank you very much indeed.  Sir Gerald Howarth there joining me from Aldershot.