ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So what impact have coalition cuts had on the police forces?  Well Sir Hugh Orde has been one of the country’s most senior police officers for the whole of this government as President of ACPO, that’s the Association of Chief Police Officers.  He is standing down in a few weeks and he joins me now, a very good morning to you, Sir Hugh.  Do you feel it is a good time to be standing down, are you sick to the back teeth with what’s been going on?   

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Not at all.  Having done 38 years it seemed to me that with all these very bright, able and capable chiefs coming up it’s time to step down for the next generation but one thing is clear, Dermot, the determination regardless of the cuts to deliver an effective police service against a very changing world remains there and will continue under the new leadership.

DM: You made it clear that the cuts, they’re into the bone right now, they can’t go any further.  

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well there is no question, if you take 34,000 people out of policing, 16,000 sworn officers, there is inevitably an impact.  We are looking at another 5% this year and another 5% probably the year after so chiefs are working flat out to minimise the impact on frontline services but the stark reality now is inevitably there will be cuts in frontline services, that’s just not something…

DM: And how will the public will feel that impacting in so many areas?  Do you think crime levels will go up?

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well we are starting to see some crime increasing.  Crime is at an historic low and we should take some comfort in that but crime is changing.  Look at the terrorist threat, a massive impact on policing in this country and something I experienced when I was chief in Northern Ireland, relentlessly for seven years.  That is changing and taking more effort, serious crime is starting to increase, rape which takes a lot of resource – quite properly – is increasing, it’s up quite substantially.  Now we think that’s people having confidence in policing but we have to respond to that and we have to change our structure to deliver that.

DM: And what about the terror threat, everyone of course talking about it at the moment.  Is the police, that side of the equation, is the police’s ability to deal with any potential terror threat including to sworn officers on the streets themselves, is that compromised by the cuts?

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well we are absolutely determined to deliver an effective service against what is now a rising threat against the very people who are protecting citizens themselves, again parallels with Northern Ireland.  Every day, every officer in Northern Ireland goes to work and even off duty, mindful of the fact that they are at threat.  Our officers are experiencing the same.  Chief officers take that extremely seriously, I was at a meeting on Wednesday when every chief was there or represented, to make sure we do all we can.  I think the first point is that the public needs to be absolutely clear that police officers will still respond, we are not stepping back, the service has never stepped back from that sort of threat and our officers continue to deliver that work but terrorism itself is changing.  The threats from people who are not known to us, the people who self-radicalise, who are radicalised coming back from the Jihad in other countries, that’s a very different threat to the one we faced in Northern Ireland over many years.

DM: Okay, you talk about individual officers and groups of officers of course wanting to respond and do their duty but if there just aren't enough of them there can’t be a response.  Do the cuts directly impact on the fight against terror?

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well it’s inevitable that the cuts will impact on policing, what Chief Officers have had to do is make choices, so for example with terrorism, there is a world class structure in this country and very ably led by the Metropolitan Police but the whole country contributes to that fight.  That will not stop, that will continue.  Other crimes, serious crimes, we will put our effort in but something has to give and you will see visibility for example starting to, people will be less visible.  It doesn’t mean they are not out there, it means that routine patrols will be seen as less evident and indeed the College of Policing’s recent work on demand tells us that is the case.

DM: How joined up though is top policing, top police officers like yourself and government?  You said it yourself, you don’t see Theresa May from one month to the next, months go without you having any sensible dialogue.

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well what’s important is that the Chief Constables come together through ACPO and in the new world through the National Police Chiefs Council, to make sure we are doing the best we can against whatever political backdrop there is in the country.  Politics are a matter for politicians, policing in this country is fiercely independent and rightly so.  We make judgements and we say what we need to say as a professional organisation.  Government has to work through that but we must do what is right for the citizen and we must protect the citizen.  

DM: But we have been talking, Sir Hugh, about the resource envelope you work in.  Of course that is set by the government and you’ve made these points to me today, you’ve made it in newspapers in the past, the public are going to think well surely you must be making those points to Theresa May and she must be receptive to many of those arguments but it turns out you don’t talk to each other.  

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well certainly in this government I’ve not met the Home Secretary in a way that one would meet in previous governments, different governments deal with policing differently.  This government had a very clear view on policing when it came in and it has driven that process through sometimes regardless of what the police view is, sometimes with consultation.  It’s been different in different areas but one thing where my continual frustration has been however is this government and indeed the last government has not listened to the needs from the service to reorganise.  We have 44 forces, a structure designed before colour television in the 60s.  We are now facing international terrorism, international crime, crime where money can move around many countries in a nanosecond in a false structure which is not right and we can make substantial changes I think and become more efficient if only the government would listen to that and have a proper review of the force structure.

DM: You say you’re frustrated about that lack of listening, are you angry?  

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Police officers don’t get angry, we’re used to dealing with different governments and the government has a right to govern in the way it thinks fit in the same way as it has the right to hold policing to account in the way it feels fit.  Our job is to respond and deliver professional outcomes for citizens so that they feel safe.

DM: But here’s the key question, and you talked about your experience in Northern Ireland, in terms of the resources again, is the country as safe as it can be within the available resources or is it as safe as it can be?

SIR HUGH ORDE:  Well it is safe … we will use every penny we are given as wisely as we can and every Chief Constable I know is focusing on the front end of policing.  The cuts to date, we have managed to take most of that out of what one would call back office.  That is changing, the demand for public protection is increasing, again identified clearly by the College of Policing recently, terrorism pressures are increasing and different.  The trick of course is we must maintain that local public confidence and legitimacy because in the new threat it will be citizens and local communities that spot people starting to behave differently, to become radicalised and if they are not confident in the service they won’t speak to us so neighbourhood policing remains at the centre of our model.  With a different force structure like Scotland, now one force and not eight, I am convinced we would be more efficient and more effective and indeed the Shadow Home Secretary’s observations on collaboration in a smaller group is far easier than collaboration across 44 forces.  

DM: Well Sir Hugh, very interesting talking to you, thank you very much indeed for coming in.  Sir Hugh Orde there, the outgoing chief of ACPO.