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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now you may remember, it seems quite a long time ago now doesn’t it, that it took less than three weeks for the Conservatives to choose their new leader and install Theresa May into Downing Street whilst of course the Labour leadership contest has rumbled on all summer, and last summer, that’s despite polls showing that Jeremy Corbyn, who has remained defiant in the face of a coup of his own MPs, is on course for another landslide victory, that’s a bigger one over his challenger this time, Owen Smith.  Well the Labour MP, Sir Keir Starmer, was Shadow Home Office Minister before he resigned from Mr Corbyn’s Shadow Cabinet this summer, and a very good morning to you.  

SIR KEIR STARMER: Keir not Keith.

DM: I did say Sir Keir Starmer, I think it’s just the way it probably came out there.  Tell me about the Labour party and your sense of being trapped in this kind of circus, it’s almost like a Munch type scream painting isn’t it?

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well we’re going through a leadership election obviously, that’s a difficult time for any party, that resolves in two or three weeks.  We’ve had strong campaigns from both sides and we have to resolve it and we will resolve it.

DM: Well Diane Abbott, a strong supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, has been just on this programme saying if Mr Corbyn wins or if Mr Smith wins, you have all got to unite, those of you who went into the wilderness have to come back if you want to.

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well I’m backing Owen Smith, I’ve been actively campaigning for him and I hope he wins.  If he doesn’t win we’ll face that when the time comes but at the moment I’m campaigning for Owen.

DM: Okay, you’ll face that when the time comes but would you consider serving under Jeremy Corbyn, you have resigned as I say?

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well as I say, at the moment we are still in the campaign, I’m backing Owen and I do hope he wins.  If he doesn’t win we’ll all have to consider our position when it arises but I don't think speculating at this stage helps anybody.

DM: Okay, we’ve got the polls, we kind of do have to speculate, you must have thought this through, you can’t serve under Mr Corbyn at the moment so you must be looking to your future, you must be looking to the future of the party and thinking well what do I do if it is Mr Corbyn again?  The polls show that, his support seems to be very high and indeed Mr Smith doesn’t have very many different policies it seems from what we’ve heard from Mr Corbyn, doesn’t the Labour party stay in the same general direction?

SIR KEIR STARMER: This is not about me or any individual MP, it’s about the Labour party.  I will say this, I don't think the party should split and we must unify whatever the outcome but as I say, at the moment we are still in the campaigning stage.  

DM: Well let me ask you about this policy similarity then, the analysis then must be surely that you just feel it is personality then that leads Mr Corbyn in your view to be unelectable as Prime Minister, that Mr Smith with the same policy set could sell them better, is that it?

SIR KEIR STARMER: I think it’s about forming an effective opposition and it is about being able to win elections. The Labour party is a parliamentary party, that means we believe in winning elections.  We absolutely need to win the next election, after the ’08 crash so much devastation has taken place, now we’ve had the EU referendum, the next three or four years are critically important in terms of the UK’s place in the world and we need to be in a position where we can win the next election, it is the most important thing.  We don’t have to abandon principles to do that but that is a really important thing, that is what we’re aiming for.  

DM: But you think the policy set is correct?

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well there are policy issues between Owen and Jeremy, policy issues between different camps in the Labour party.  At the moment the position is, how do we make sure that we can win the next election, to have a united fully fighting Labour party …

DM: But people aren’t going say ‘Oh they’re united, I’ll vote for them’, they say they are going to put up taxes or they’re not going to put up taxes, they are going to crack down on big business, they are going to nationalise the railways.

SIR KEIR STARMER: Yes, we have to persuade people, we have to have a project for the future, we have to be absolutely clear what our position is on Brexit and hold the government to account on that, of course we have to do all those things but most important we have to win the next election.

DM: Okay, well a live issue then, people will want to hear what you think about the NHS dispute, this is turning out to be the biggest industrial relations dispute within the history of the National Health Service, Diane Abbott the Shadow Health Secretary saying she by and large supports the junior doctors, she will be on the picket line.

SIR KEIR STARMER: I think most people in this country are sympathetic with the junior doctors.  The whole way this has been set up is the fault of the government, not only the package itself but the suggestion that there isn’t seven day working and then the imposition of a contract, everybody can see that this is the fault of the government and there is huge sympathy for the junior doctors including from me.

DM: Five day strikes though?

SIR KEIR STARMER: I think that’s very worrying that there should be the prospect of five day strikes but whenever we get to a situation like this we have to look at what the root cause of it was and I’m afraid the root cause is Jeremy Hunt.

DM: But five day strikes, won’t that damage patients?

SIR KEIR STARMER: I think there is a great deal of concern about five day strikes, of course there is, and I doubt there is a junior doctor that really wants to engage in five day strikes but the real question is why have they been pushed this far?  It’s never happened before in the history of the NHS and we’ve been through some very difficult periods, so why have they been pushed this far?

DM: But you know some within the Labour party and some supporters of Mr Corbyn are saying this is part of the different forms of action, the different forms of political action that the Labour party must get involved in, that it’s not just about the parliamentary route to power.

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well look, the Labour party has always been a combination of trade unions, social movements, progressive forces and a parliamentary Labour party committed to parliamentary elections and winning in parliament.  There’s nothing wrong with a broader social movement, it’s to be encouraged but let’s be absolutely clear, we’re a parliamentary party and we want to win elections and that’s the primary route to power.

DM: And can I just ask you lastly about your colleague Keith Vaz and these stories about his personal life in some of the Sunday papers this morning, he has decided we understand to stand aside from chairing the Home Affairs Select Committee.

SIR KEIR STARMER: Well look, I know nothing about these allegations other than what I’ve seen in the newspapers this morning.  I feel sorry for the position that Mr Vaz is in, I haven’t spoken to him, I have no idea what his reaction is or is going to be.  I think he’s taking legal advice, that’s understandable but I am not in a position to comment on it.

DM: But right to stand down for the time being?

SIR KEIR STARMER: On what I know but I mean I’m in no better position to answer that question than anybody else.

DM: Sir Keir, thank you very much indeed, Sir Keir Starmer there.