ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS


DERMOT MURNAGHAN: The Prime Minister’s EC negotiations will face a key test this very evening when he is joined in Downing Street by Donald Tusk.  Top of the agenda is expected to be plans to strengthen the proposed emergency brake on EU citizens claiming benefit payments in the UK.  Well a deal at the summit in Brussels next month is seen as crucial if the government wants to hold its referendum in June and I’m joined now by the Co-Chair of Conservatives for Britain, the MP Steve Baker, a very good morning to you Mr Baker.  So what slack are you cutting the Prime Minister both today and when he gets to Brussels, if he does get his emergency brake, is that going to make you think actually we should look at this in detail and maybe support him?

STEVE BAKER: Well we are looking at it in detail but the trouble is this is inconsequential and the row that we are currently seeing is a synthetic one which we always expected the comms team to manufacture.  People understand that they must create victory out of whatever they’re handed and in this case we think there has been a long series of humiliating capitulations leading to this point so the Prime Minister …

DM: But hold on, they’ve stuck fast to this demand. Where are the humiliating capitulations?  If the Prime Minister gets this, that’s his key demand.  

STEVE BAKER: Vote Leave has shown that nine out ten of the Prime Minister’s reform proposals have been dropped by this point.  We know that it’s not likely that we’ll get the Child Benefit reform that was planned and in particular we know that if anything is achieved it is because the policy applies equally to all and this is the fundamental problem – everything the Prime Minister is doing runs into the issue that it must be done on the basis of EU citizenship rather than British citizenship.  That means we have to go in supplication to the EU to ask them how we can reform our own welfare system.  These proposals were described as making not much difference even if they were implemented by …

DM: So loud and clear from your side is Prime Minister, you are effectively wasting your time even if you get everything you want on this issue of in-work benefits, it’s not enough.  

STEVE BAKER: It’s not going to answer the concerns of the British people. We need the power in our own parliament to determine what our migration policy is, that way we can have a more humane policy which applies equally to people outside the EU and one which can enjoy the consent of the public instead of the current farce of pretending that adjusting benefits for migrants will make anything other than the most marginal difference.  

DM: Meanwhile, the campaigns, the various campaigns – well two main campaigns to vote leave, well we’ve got Vote Leave and Leave.EU, seems to be not a clarity of message, let’s say, from the two sides and then this row in Vote Leave about your director, Dominic Cummings and an attempt to oust him apparently by Bernard Jenkins.  

STEVE BAKER: Well I’m determined that we should always remain focused on the strategic goal of leaving the EU, I think it’s a safer choice in the public interest and I very much regret that some severe disagreements have emerged into the public domain but I’m convinced that everybody involved is determined to reach an accommodation, put the whole thing to bed and move forward positively.  

DM: But at the moment then you are saying it is a distraction but you’re not quite focused on that strategy until you sort out what’s going on within the camp?  


STEVE BAKER: I think your viewers would know that I was being dishonest if I said anything other than the past week has been very difficult with a considerable number of distractions in the public eye.  We are determined to focus on the strategic goal, to meet an accommodation on the basis on which we can just go forward.   

DM: Is it also distracting having two campaigns?  One of you has to be the dominant one to become the official organisation.    

STEVE BAKER: Well we would like to have Vote, I would like, we would like to have Vote Leave to be the designated campaign.  We believe that Vote Leave’s strategy of engaging with swing voters is the one which can win this campaign, we think that the other campaigns will verge more into the core vote and we think a core vote strategy will lose the referendum so I remain committed to supporting Vote Leave but we have been very careful within Vote Leave and Conservatives for Britain not to direct any animosity towards Leave.EU, we wish them well in spending money explaining to people what’s wrong with the EU.

DM: But people tending towards your view don’t really care about what campaign it is but the fact is at the moment there are two main ones, are you amongst those who think that ultimately you will have to merge and let’s name him – Nigel Farage – could be on your team?

STEVE BAKER: Ultimately there will have to be an accommodation, a single designated campaign and a role for everybody of decent good will, good faith, who wishes to be involved and that will include Nigel Farage but let’s be really honest, Nigel Farage is a brilliant man for appealing to his own core vote but he cannot appeal to the 51% plus of the population we will need to win this referendum.

DM: So he can’t lead the overall out campaign so who will?  Isn’t your lesson, the Conservative’s lesson from the last general election when you pitched leader against leader, Cameron against Miliband and it came off for you, it really came up trumps, isn’t that lesson carried through to the referendum that you need a leader to get the message across that people can identify with, Boris Johnson?

STEVE BAKER: So far I’ve stuck with what I said at the beginning which is we would like really a constellation of voices, making the case and appealing to different sections of the population in a way that’s meaningful in their everyday lives but of course the appeal of a superstar at the centre of it, one who commands respect and authority, would solve a number of problems if it was someone around whom everyone could coalesce but I am actually quite happy for us to go into this campaign with a constellation of voices, each making their case in their own way to people who they can carry with them and win.

DM: So aka Boris Johnson, he can take it over but anyone lesser, they have to be in the line-up.

STEVE BAKER: I’ve never commented on any particular member of the government as you know. I know it’s frustrating for journalists but there is a range of characters in government who might command the authority necessary to carry the public and Boris would be one of them but I think Mr Johnson has not yet committed which way he is going to vote.

DM: Indeed Mr Baker, thank you very much indeed, Steve Baker there.