Murnaghan Interview with Tom Watson, MP, Deputy Labour Leader, 5.06.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the fate of Britain’s membership of the European Union could lie in Labour’s hands, that was the message last week from every living former leader of the party.  One name missing from the list was the current leader, Jeremy Corbyn and  he’s been accused by some of being lukewarm in his support for the European Union.  I am joined now by the party’s Deputy Leader,  Tom Watson and he’s in the West Midlands.  A very good morning to you Mr Watson, so Jeremy Corbyn is still lukewarm about campaigning for a yes vote and I’ve just had Kate Hoey on a little while ago saying she believes he’s a secret leaver.

TOM WATSON: I think Kate is being a little bit devilish with you there, Dermot and I do feel very sorry for Jeremy.  He was in Cornwall campaigning yesterday, Cardiff the day before, he’s been making speech after speech after speech about Labour’s case to remain in the European Union and I think he’s getting a bit of a raw deal on that.

DM: So why didn’t he sign this letter then, all the former living leaders did?   

TOM WATSON: I don’t know which letter that is, I wasn’t asked to sign one, I don't know whether he was asked to sign it or not but I can tell you that our position on Europe is very, very clear.  We want all Labour supporters to vote for Remain on Thursday June 23rd and we think we’ve got a distinct message to give our supporters.  We can say things that David Cameron doesn’t want to say or can’t say and that’s the issue about where’s the workers’ interest in the European Union, workers’ rights that enshrine people’s rights to part time rights, to make sure your paternity and maternity support is protected, that those people working night shifts don’t have to work excessively long hours. The European Union gives us that across that 500 million market that people talk about and we think that it would be in peril if we were to come out on June 23rd.  

DM: But aren’t there others, Mr Watson, in your party and maybe the thought’s crossed your mind as well, saying well the majority of the heavy pounding, the fire across the trenches seems to be between the Conservative party, that there might be something in this, in the not too distant future for Labour?

TOM WATSON: Well it is quite hard for us to get our message across.  In fact John Prescott has written a piece about this in the Sunday Mirror today where he talks about this new research that shows that most of the airtime in the debate is given to Conservative Members of Parliament and of course when you have got the kind of battles that are going on across the Cabinet, we understand that, that’s the most newsworthy issue, it sometimes seems to me that the Leave camp is almost transforming itself into a government in waiting and that is very hard for us to try and find the space to get our message over but we are relentless, Dermot, we are going to carry on doing that.  We know we have got just over 20 days to go, under 20 days to go and we want to try and get that message over so thank you for letting me have the opportunity to talk about Labour’s case on your programme.

DM: But where do you stand though with sharing platforms with those from other parties but who are saying the same things as you about remaining?  I am thinking of course about Sadiq Khan, the new Mayor of London, Labour Mayor of London appearing with the Prime Minister despite the fact that the Prime Minister had been critical of him before he got elected.  Are you with John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor that senior Labour figures shouldn’t be doing that?

TOM WATSON: I’ve been consistent on this, I think that Labour people have got to make their own mind up.  I personally don’t think it’s helpful that I share a platform with Cameron and Osborne because actually the things I want to talk about are a workers Europe, the social rights, the changes we want to make to Europe and actually about how Europe is the sort of gearbox of civility that has kept the peace for 50 years and I think we’d find it harder to make that message were I to talk to a guy that actually wants to take away worker’s rights after this referendum is over.    

DM: Just a question about the Corbyn camp, we saw in that documentary last week didn’t we, there seems to be elements of paranoia surrounding them that they feel people in the media are out to get them.  

TOM WATSON: Well I sometimes feel that myself Dermot and it is very hard when you are under pressure, you walk out your door in London in the morning and you’ve got a Daily Mail photographer on your tail, it sometimes leads to stress levels but no, we know that we have to get our message over and we know that journalists are doing their jobs.  I was slightly embarrassed this week when a journalist was hissed at one of our press conferences because I don't think that’s right, you’re all paid to do your jobs and we understand that.

DM: What about this issue of Damian McBride, a former spin doctor of course to Gordon Brown and now back in the Labour fold advising Emily Thornberry.  It seems that he’s been sending information to the Leave side in the form of Michael Gove.  

TOM WATSON: I’ve not seen that but I suspect that if he was giving advice to Michael Gove, Michael Gove would be giving a better performance than he currently is doing but I’m sorry, I don't know about that story.   

DM: But you’d be happy with that if Damian McBride were doing that?

TOM WATSON: I think I’d better find out what the allegation is before I answer that Dermot.  I’ll get one of my press people to find out what he has or hasn’t been saying.

DM: Okay now what about this issue of immigration, we’ve had again from the Leave camp today saying they can get immigration down to the tens of thousands because you get control of the borders and you get control of EU migration, they could get it down to the tens of thousands but of course you Remainers can’t.  Should you even attempt to do that, is that a message do you think that is damaging the Remain side?

TOM WATSON: Well this is a complicated argument.  Firstly we do have control of our borders because we are opted out of the Schengen Agreement and actually control of immigration is a domestic issue because of that.  We have said for some years as the Labour party we are concerned about the cuts to our Border force that have been made in the last three years, cuts that by the way Boris Johnson and Michael Gove signed up to. Only this week we’ve seen Theresa May on the back foot because she cut the aerial cover for the English Channel so that’s one issue but it does seem to me in this debate that the exit camp really are trying to make people believe that this is a referendum on British immigration rather than our economic future within the European Union and that’s a very difficult argument to take on for us and sometimes I think maybe all we’ve got left is to say to people look, if you are going to vote no don’t do it because you think it will end immigration because it won’t.  If we come out of that single market there will be expectations that we sign up to those deals that are done across Europe and one of those will be movement of Labour and if we want to get access to that market we won’t be around the negotiating table trying to get the terms, we’ll have what’s given to us. So it’s a tough argument to make but it’s one that I think we’re going to have to do.

DM: So you accept then the concerns about immigration, they’ve been around for a long time, you saw them during the general election campaign as well.  What do you think to this today from Nigel Farage the UKIP leader, has he struck a chord here when he talks about migrants and sexual assaults on women, the kind of thing that happened in Cologne over the new year.  He said if we don’t leave the European Union it could perhaps happen here.  

TOM WATSON: Well I can see why the Leave campaign are trying to keep Nigel Farage in a box on that, I think it’s the very lowest common denominator politics and I don’t really want to get into that debate about that because I just think he is courting controversy and trying to frighten people.  What I’d rather do is trying and make the last remaining weeks of this campaign about the positive reasons why we should stay in Europe, why it has been a civilising force over the last half century, why it’s kept the peace, why it has allowed us to remain secure, why it’s made us a prosperous nation and I hope that Nigel Farage can try and find it within himself to be a little bit more dignified.

DM: So do you think he should withdraw the remarks, do you think they are racist?

TOM WATSON: I have actually not seen his remarks in detail Dermot but he usually does these things during elections to get attention and I don’t really want to help him in that.  

DM: The nuclear bomb this time, says Mr Farage, would be about Cologne, there are some very big cultural issues and he says about sex attacks akin to those in Cologne, could they happen in Britain, ‘It depends if they get EU passports, it depends if we get a vote for Brexit or not’.  He seems to say that it is dependent on Brexit.  

TOM WATSON: I just don’t understand the logic of his argument there.  I think he is genuinely trying to frighten people and it’s improper conduct but I don’t want to add to the media scrum around those controversial comments because I think the British people deserve a higher standard of debate.

DM: Okay Mr Watson, great talking to you, thank you very much indeed.  Deputy Labour Leader, Tom Watson, there.