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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now an estimated 35,000 Syrians, so far, displaced by fighting in Aleppo are being held at the Turkish border raising concerns about the conditions they’re facing there and tens of thousands more are expected to arrive at the border over the coming days if Russian and Syrian air strikes continue.  Well Yvette Cooper is the Chair of Labour’s Refugee Taskforce and was of course one of those in the running to be the party’s leader last September. She’s with me now as you can see and a very good morning to you, Ms Cooper.  What should Britain’s response be to this growing refugee and humanitarian crisis?

YVETTE COOPER: We need a global response to what’s happening and you’re right, what’s happening with Aleppo is deeply worrying, 70,000 people are reported to have fled Aleppo as a result of the bombardment by the Assad government but also by Russian forces as well so the priority has to do anything possible to try and stabilise the situation in Syria, to get the peace talks back on track and put whatever pressure we can on Russia to stop this bombardment of civilian areas which is increasing the number of refugees.

DM: So you’ve no doubt then that the Russians are not just, as they say, attacking ISIS and the terrorists, that they are bombing civilian areas?

YVETTE COOPER: I think there is clear evidence that the majority of the Russian bombardment is not in fact towards ISIS at all, despite everything that they’ve said and instead is targeting the small opposition forces that have been fighting against the Assad regime and also that they have been targeting areas where there are civilians as well which also causes huge problems and is increasing the number of refugees.  So I think the first priority is what is the global response to that, what is the peace process response and then the second, most immediate response is what is the humanitarian aid that is needed particularly in Turkey, we do need Turkey to open their borders to be able to help those refugees that are at the border now but of course Turkey has already taken two and a half million refugees within the country at the moment and so the more support that they need, the better.

DM: So do you think then that the EU should take even more and that within the EU that Britain should be doing more?

YVETTE COOPER: I do think that Britain needs to do more, yes, but it does have to be part of this global effort so what I think the government did last week with the Aid Conference was really important.  I have often criticised the government as part of this, on that one I  think they have done the right thing by putting the aid into the region and also getting other countries to put aid in as well because the priority has to be that most people want to stay close to home, near to Syria, so that they can return but of course we have also got people who have fled further and when the rations in the camps were cut last year, in the refugee camps, that’s what drove a lot of people into Europe as well.  So look, Europe is going to have to cope with more people arriving in the course of this year, we’ve already seen an increase this year compared to last year, but it is going to have to be spread across the continent with all countries doing more.

DM: Well across the continent and as members of the European Union, senior members of the European Union at this point anyway, the United Kingdom – we’ve got that number of 20,000 over five years, perhaps more, several thousand more unaccompanied minors but just on absolute numbers do you think that should be enlarged?

YVETTE COOPER: Yes, Britain is going to have to …

DM: To what though?

YVETTE COOPER: Well I originally said Britain should take 10,000 straight away and that would mean helping, if every city, every county across the country simply supported ten refugee families that in itself makes 10,000 people and you could do that straight away within a year. I also said I think it’s right for us to help the unaccompanied child refugees because we did that with the Kinder Transport and we know that Europol have said that 10,000 child refugees have just disappeared in Europe, probably into the arms of smuggler gangs, of traffickers and even child prostitution and abuse.  So I don't think Britain can do more but actually I think the best way for us to do that would be for us just to go round the country and ask communities how many people they could support and …

DM: But judging by the recent polls attitudes are rather hardening against even the numbers we are scheduled to take.

YVETTE COOPER: And I think you’re right, people have become more worried and I think part of the reason people have become more concerned is because they don’t see where is the plan, where is the comprehensive plan across Europe. I think we are still getting a huge amount of support and if you ask communities themselves, rather than just tell people what to do but ask towns and cities to come forward and see what they can do to help, you get a huge response.  You get church groups, mosques, faith groups coming forward wanting to help, community organisations and so on but my argument has always been, this has got to be done with a plan that involves both sanctuary and border controls and checks.  You’ve got to have proper systems in place to make sure there are security checks being done but also to manage things, to have proper checks at borders, not just in Calais, not just in Greece but right through Europe as well.

DM: People are conflating this, it’s getting caught up as we all know with discussions about migration and immigration.  Should these refugees, these asylum seekers, should they be allowed to work, should they be allowed to establish themselves in the United Kingdom or when the time is right, hopefully sooner rather than later, they go back to their country of origin?

YVETTE COOPER: Well in other places what you are talking about is temporary sanctuary so for example in the Bosnian crisis, a lot of people who we gave sanctuary to during that crisis ended up returning to Bosnia afterwards to be able to be part of rebuilding their country so we know a lot of people from Syria want to be able to return and you are only talking about temporary sanctuary.  So I think you have also got to remember that refugees is different from asylum, immigration and asylum are different things and often we end up conflating the two.  Part of the reason you need robust checks to find out are people refugees or do they have safe homes that they need to return to and the immigration rules need to be enforced?  You’ve got to be able to separate the two.

DM: But it would help in terms of the contribution they can make to the society they return to which is by its very nature going to have to be rebuilt, if they got skills, acquired skills here through work, through education.

YVETTE COOPER: Sure and once people have been designated as refugees, once they have been through and had the proper checks, then actually refugees can work so that is all part of the existing rules and I’ve talked to Syrian doctors, teachers, lawyers, car mechanics, business owners, people with all kinds of trades and skills but I think again people will support that if they know that the proper rules are in place.  It’s why I’ve argued within Europe that we should also not have the Schengen system of no border checks within Europe as well, if you had proper checks within Europe alongside countries offering sanctuary you can have both stability and humanity side by side.

DM: How much do you think this is going to be an issue in the EU referendum?  We are looking at the moment as soon as June, do you think this is going to be the single main issue, people coming to our shores from overseas?

YVETTE COOPER: I don't think it is going to be the single main issue but I think it will be part of the debate and I think we have got to be discussing it as part of the debate because it is such an important issue.  What it shows actually is when you are dealing with something that’s such a big global problem, you need countries to work together.  I think we would find it much harder to deal with the refugee crisis if we were out of Europe, we would find it harder to maintain our border checks in Calais rather than in Dover, that would cause big challenges for managing what happens.  We would also find it harder to get other countries, whether it be Greece, whether it be Germany, whether it be other countries across Europe to also be working together both to put pressure on the Syrian process but also to be able to have border checks, to have robust checks in place and to give sanctuary to countries as well.

DM: The thought occurs to me, Ms Cooper, people listening to that will hear your sophisticated analysis of the careful checks when it comes to dealing with migration, the definition of refugees, of asylum but then they will look at the pronouncements of the current leadership and the likes of the Shadow Chancellor who seems to be going towards an open doors policy, the latest pronouncements on no illegal immigration, there are no illegal immigrants in the United Kingdom. Do you think that is being reflected, your view is being in the current message from the Labour leadership?

YVETTE COOPER: Well I don't think you can have open borders and I don't think we are heading towards them either because I think we have got more people travelling than ever before but in response to that you need to be able to manage that.  You need to have a managed, ordered system and that’s why you need border controls, why you need border checks and I think they are going to become more important in future.  They are more important for example in stopping smuggler gangs and stopping child exploitation, those 10,000 kids that Europol say have disappeared, how can you even find out what country they are in if you don’t have the border checks in place to stop those gangs trafficking kids across borders?

DM: It sounds like they could do with your voice in the Shadow Cabinet?  I know you said after the leadership campaign it was personal and political reasons wasn’t it that you said you didn’t want to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, are any of those changing for you?

YVETTE COOPER: Well to be honest this is such an important issue that I am concentrating on working on the refugee crisis and not just what Britain’s response should be but also Britain and Europe’s response. We are promoting an amendment in the House of Lords in the next few weeks which is about taking 3,000 child refugees just as we did for the Kinder Transport and Alf Dubbs who himself came here under the Kinder Transport and was rescued from the holocaust is the Lord that I’ve been working with and proposing that, so that’s what I’ve been concentrating on.

DM: It’s just that voice in the Shadow Cabinet and therefore reflected at senior levels because you’re aware of the reports there have been into why Labour lost last May and one of the reasons coming back at you – and we talked about it before when you were in the leadership campaign – was not taking the issue of migration seriously or being perceived to be in that position.  Well there you are as we have discussed here with a very thought out position but it’s not coming from the top anymore.  

YVETTE COOPER: Well I think Andy Burnham is actually now going around the country wanting to talk to people about why there are issues about immigration and as I said, I think immigration and asylum, you’ve got to keep them separate but the issue about immigration is a really important one for Britain and we do have to recognise the concerns that there are and also the reforms that are needed but I think that’s exactly what Andy is doing.

DM: But if Mr Corbyn hits the buffers in May, we have got this series of electoral tests coming up, have you written off a future front bench or even leadership career for good?

YVETTE COOPER: I think that right now I am concentrating on this, I think that’s the right thing for me to do but look, all of us across the party need to be working hard on the local elections, the London Mayoral election as well and I’m sure that Jeremy and all the leadership of the party will be focused on what it is we need to do in order to win those elections because that in the end is what the Labour party is for, to be able to win elections and to get power in order to be able to change the country for the people that we need to stand up for.

DM: And just after that, as we discussed, we might be facing an EU referendum, how hard and how visibly are you going to be campaigning for a remain vote and who with?

YVETTE COOPER: I will be strongly campaigning for us to stay in Europe, we have to I think.  Whether you are talking about stability of Europe, whether you are talking about dealing with what is a Syrian refugee crisis, whether you are talking about jobs.  My constituency I’ve talked to, the people that run the factories in my constituency who say how important it is for them to remain and…

DM: But who with?  Chuka Umunna, your colleague says I’ll be quite happy to, this is too important to have party political lines, I’ll be on a platform with anyone.

YVETTE COOPER: Yes, I think we’ll all be campaigning and I’ll be campaigning.  We’ve got Alan Johnson leading the Labour In campaign …

DM: Labour.  Any Conservatives?

YVETTE COOPER: We’ll also obviously be working with the Stronger In campaign as well, of course, you’ve got to.  I think probably you’ve seen this bickering and division from the out campaign and I think that reveals something deeper which in the end they don’t know what they are campaigning for.  We know what we are campaigning for which is yes, we want reforms in Europe, we’ve got to have changes in Europe but we also know we’ve got to be part of a European partnership at a time when there are so many global threats. They are divided because they actually haven’t a clue.  There are some of them who want to be Norway and that means effectively being outside, having no say but still paying in, having to abide by Europe’s rules and having no say.  There are others who just want to build a wall around Britain and think we can hide ourselves in a bunker and have nothing to do with the outside world – that in the end is why they’re fighting.

DM: Yvette Cooper, great seeing you, thank you very much indeed.