ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: The Prime Minister has hit out at universities, businesses and the legal system for failing Britain’s minorities and that’s on the front page of today’s Sunday Times.  Joining me to discuss that and the rest of today’s top stories are David Lammy who is leading that review into racism in the criminal justice system, Nusrat Ghani the Conservative MP and the author and playwright Bonnie Greer, a very good morning to you all.  A story not in the papers but which will be dominating tomorrow is the death of Terry Wogan.  David, there was a guy with self-deprecation, what an intellect he had, he was always turning the humour on himself first of all.

DAVID LAMMY: Self-depreciation, humility, intellect, charm.  I’m thinking of the Wogan Show throughout the 80s, my whole family sat on the couch and a bit like Parkinson, everybody who was anybody went on to the Wogan Show, it was a big, big deal and coming of age and gravitating just from children’s TV, it was incredibly inclusive, warm, vivacious, a great show, a great chat show.

DM: Let’s turn to the newspapers and I have to turn to you David, it’s on the front page of the Sunday Times, I just referred to it in the introduction there, the Prime Minister hitting out at well universities, businesses and the legal system for failing Britain’s minorities and some eye-popping statistics.  

DAVID LAMMY: I think it’s right that the Prime Minister should make this a national issue, that we should all feel, whatever our political party, we can engage in.  He has actually raised the issues around universities before, I was Universities Minister and I put on the table that when you look at the statistics, when you look at the applications, the desire to aspire particularly to some of our more research intensive universities, I’m afraid very, very sadly – and there was a point a few years ago that there were more young people with the surname Smith at Oxford than there were black students.  We can do better and in the same vein I am very pleased to be looking at the evidence, speaking to our judges, speaking to our prison governors, speaking to parts of the community that find themselves in prisons or young offenders institutes, to try and do something to try and address some of these figures and they are very, very …

DM: Some of these figures, let’s just pick them out, if you are white and accused of the same crime as a black person you are less likely to go to prison for exactly the same offence than if you’re black.

DAVID LAMMY: That’s true.  You go to court, you’re found guilty, it’s the same charge but the incident if you are Muslim, if you are black, is that you will have a longer time in prison and that needs to be looked at and examined in detail.  I’m not saying ours is the only country where this is the case and there is experience from abroad that we’ve got to draw on as well, but it’s also the case that we’ve got groups that are say 3% of the population, the black community, 4 or 5% of the population, the Muslim community and 13% in our institutions and for young offenders the figures are even worse.  So the trend is going in the wrong direction and of course the younger you end up in prison, the chances are you are going to go back.

DM: David, you mentioned there across the political divide, the nature of this.  Do you believe the Prime Minister, do you believe in his sincerity on this issue to try to make things different?

DAVID LAMMY: Well actually I’ve had communication with the Prime Minister over a number of years on these issues because of the relationship and the nature of my constituency but also because I was Universities Minister and I do think there is sincerity there but it’s right too, I spoke to Jeremy Corbyn about doing this and he has taken up these issues with the criminal justice system for many, many years so there are occasions when the issue is beyond party politics, this is absolutely one of them and just as Gordon Brown was able to work with MPs that were on the Conservative side on big issues of the day, I’m very pleased to be working with the Prime Minister and Michael Gove on this subject.  

DM: Another important issue which also may be beyond party politics, this lead in the Sunday Telegraph ‘Migration crisis deepens’, and the photograph is of a demonstration which turned violent in places in Dover yesterday, of course the deaths in the Aegean, 39 or 40 people died there as David Cameron faces tough renegotiations.  

DAVID LAMMY: There is something about investing obviously in the refugee camps in situ in Syria but this is a huge crisis facing Europe, I think it is actually bigger than the business of in Europe or out of Europe and how we react is a measure of our civilisation so with 39 people drowning, that must really stop and make us think, all countries together have to play their part.  This is a big test of our political leaders in Europe at this point.  

DM: Great talking to you, I’m sorry we are out of time to get further and deeper into the papers but thank you all very much indeed.