ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: In six months’ time this velodrome will be at the heart of the 20th Commonwealth Games, a celebration of sport that Alex Salmond hopes will speed him to victory in the independence referendum. Mr Salmond though faces a tough fight, opinion polls consistently place the ‘Yes’ campaign well behind the ‘No’s’ including a unique poll carried out for this programme. Well YouGov asked more than 2500 people across Scotland, Wales and England to imagine waking up to find that Scotland had become an independent country. This is the response: nearly half, that’s 46% of those outside of Scotland, said they would not mind; just over a third, 34%, said they would be dismayed and 11% said that they would be delighted. Now those in Scotland were significantly more likely to say they would be dismayed, that’s 46% against just a quarter who said that they would be delighted. Well we will be debating that throughout this morning’s programme on State of the Union. So given their problems in the polls how can Alex Salmond and the Scottish National Party convince enough voters to make their independence dream a reality? Well I spoke to the First Minister at a rather gusty Gleneagles, another fine Scottish sporting venue of course, and that will this autumn, just after the referendum vote on September 18th, host the Ryder Cup. What happens on September 19th, you wake up and you’ve lost? We know that this is the anniversary of Bannockburn, will it be try, try, try again? It’s not over for you is it?

ALEX SALMOND: Well actually Bruce tried seven times, it was the story of a spider but I was intending to win this time so if we are going to have a hypothesis, let’s do it on the basis of winning. One of the things that will happen, the referendum takes place just before the Ryder Cup so I hope and believe that I’ll be able to come to the Ryder Cup and enjoy the golf with the referendum campaign over and with a satisfactory result, so that will add to the [inaudible] but incidentally there is absolutely no way, I’m not saying this will determine the choice on the day, that I was going to have the Ryder Cup in the middle of a referendum campaign because I want to be here like everybody else.

DM: But with the yes campaign a long way behind in the polls, does the First Minister really think he can turn it around?

ALEX SALMOND: Opinion polls tend to ask people how are you going to vote tomorrow and people answer on that basis but this referendum is not tomorrow, this referendum is in September and therefore the campaign that you fight to win this referendum is one that engages people, certainly in terms of providing a platform for the White Paper but that engagement is going to culminate in September, that’s the point to be in front, not now.

DM: But everyone thinks you’ve got something up your sleeve, and if you had you wouldn’t tell me I know that but if you …

ALEX SALMOND: Well that’s the aim of having things up your sleeve isn’t it?

DM: Exactly but you are going to produce something, they say Alex Salmond, he is a formidable political operator, he must have something there, he is going to produce something that is really going to amaze us and will push his campaign forward.

ALEX SALMOND: Well I’ve no doubt there will be a range of amazements over the next eight months or so.

DM: And if those amazements deliver victory for the yes campaign, what does it mean for the rest of the UK?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I think the Scottish economy will benefit from Scottish independence and what’s even more interesting is that …

DM: But do you care about the rest of the UK’s economy?

ALEX SALMOND: I’ll get to that just in a second. What I was going to say was what is interesting about recent developments is the so-called Borderland Initiative which is basically an initiative of the north of England councils who are looking at the political developments in Scotland and instead of seeing a threat, they are seeing an opportunity. They want closer relations with Scotland in terms of transport infrastructure for example and the reason for that is that they see the power centre moving north as a potential benefit, counterbalancing the huge gravitational pull of London which has such an influence and in many ways damages the economy of the regions of England even more than it damages the…

DM: So that could lead to demands, I know they have been discussed in the past, for regional councils, regional devolution or would you again care or would you hope to set off that kind of chain of events?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it’s not for me to intervene in English affairs but if you want a commentary, if I was a politician in the north of England I’d be campaigning avidly for more economic and political power for that area and of course the Borderlands Initiative is a very significant new development because in the past, back in the 70s, people in the north of England, at least politicians, often saw movement forward in Scotland as a threat. That initiative, encompassing the councils of the North of England and the universities, now see it as an opportunity and that’s the way I think we should see it.

DM: But if you were in Cornwall or Wales would you also campaign for those kind of extra powers?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I would, but it’s not for me to decide, it’s for the people in these areas of England to decide and of course it is for the people of Wales to decide. Of course we’ve had a long standing alliance with our sister party, Plaid Cymru, there are many people in Wales for example cheering Scotland on because the tendency over the last generation has been as Scotland has had increased power then Wales has followed that and therefore again it has been a good thing for other areas of the country, if you accept that the National Assembly for Wales is a good thing. I do, I think that, then it is a good thing for other areas of the country that Scotland’s ambitions and opportunities have started to be fulfilled.

DM: We’ve talked an awful lot over the years about what Scotland has brought, and indeed lost, through its association with the rest of the United Kingdom. Has it all been one-way traffic in your book or has Scotland gained in any areas for being part of the United Kingdom?

ALEX SALMOND: I’ve never said that these things were one-way traffic and incidentally, I’ve always couched the ambition for Scottish independence in a positive direction, Scotland accepting opportunity but also responsible for …

DM: Well put your finger on something Scotland has gained from being part of the UK.

ALEX SALMOND: I think if we go back in time, then the trading availability of the Empire was a benefit to the Scottish economy.

DM: Well that includes slaves.

ALEX SALMOND: No, I’m not endorsing every aspect of the Empire, that’s why I said the trading aspect of the Empire but one of the reasons why times have changed, the new thinking of course, is that the times when you had to be part of a big state to ensure free trade, these days are over. Everybody has access to free trade and small states have as much access to international markets as big states, that’s one of the things that has changed in the 20th and 21st centuries which is why so many countries that have become independent.

DM: I’ve heard today, we’ve heard before, and you are reassuring Scottish people, that a lot of things won’t change. You’ll still be able to see Eastenders, you’ll still be able to play the National Lottery, you’ll still be able to drive across the border without any checks – so many things will stay the same. Doesn’t that really undermine the proposition, aren’t people going to say ‘Well why do we need independence? Things are going to stay the same, let’s keep it that way.’

ALEX SALMOND: Well let’s take broadcasting and what will change. What will change is we’ll have in addition to being able to share services and watch programmes that we love, we’ll have a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation, a publicly funded Broadcasting Corporation of Scotland which will make sure we’ve got the full ambit of Scottish coverage as well as being able to enjoy coverage from the BBC and indeed the rest of the world. That exactly points out the advantages of independence, that you lose nothing but you gain that particular Scottish dimension to provide an overall balance for the coverage. Sky will continue in an independent Scotland, we’ve already said we’ll honour the licence renewal of ITV and STV and Channel4 so these things will continue but of course…

DM: So they stay the same but they get better?

ALEX SALMOND: Well what’s better is we’ll have a publicly funded broadcaster which we don’t have in Scotland at the present moment. BBC Scotland only contributes a few hours to output in a 24 hour period, instead of that we’ll have a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation with dedicated Scottish channels that will look at international and national and UK news from a Scottish perspective. Scotland is not a county or a district or a region, Scotland is a country not a county, it’s a nation but that nation exists in friendship with other nations and after Scottish independent England will be our best pals, our closest neighbours, our best pals in the world. That’s a sit should be but that doesn’t nullify or attack the case for Scottish independence, on the contrary. Interdependence in the modern world strengthens the case.

DM: One last question, I suppose the man who really started all this, Tony Blair, devolution, we now end up with independence …

ALEX SALMOND: I don’t know if I want to give Tony Blair the credit for starting it!

DM: Well I wanted to ask you about Tony Blair because in an independent Scotland should he be worried because you tried to get him impeached at one point, would you try to have him arrested if he came to an independent Scotland and you were still Prime Minister?

ALEX SALMOND: Yes, he was very worried when I was trying to get him impeached and somewhat annoyed and it was a very serious issue because I think there were huge questions to answer in terms of his role in the illegal war in Iraq, questions which still haven’t been answered and I note incidentally that someone tried to affect a citizen’s arrest on Mr Blair quite recently. But no, I think the basis on how we should pursue the investigation into the war in Iraq is to allow the inquiry which has been set up to take its course.

DM: Chilcot.

ALEX SALMOND: I am very hopeful because people are obviously anxious to see the results of that inquiry, as indeed I am, and I hope it can be presented and go forward on that basis which is the sensible thing to do.

DM: But could it lead to a situation, a Pinochet situation, you remember when Pinochet came to the UK, the late General Pinochet of Chile was arrested and held under house arrest?

ALEX SALMOND: Incidentally, insofar as you need the powers to do that, we have those powers at the present moment, we have a separate legal system. So Tony Blair’s vulnerability to a citizen’s arrest in Scotland will not change with Scottish independence. Some people have actually argued that should happen but I think, and more importantly, the independent judicial authorities of Scotland think, that’s the senior law officers, the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor General, they think that the correct mechanism to proceed is to allow the Chilcot Inquiry to investigate and bring its provision forward. Let’s see what they find out about Tony Blair’s role. The more important political point of course about the Iraq war is that independence will give us the ability never again to be forced into participation into what the majority of people in Scotland saw as an illegal conflict, that’s another advantage of having control over that area of policy.

DM: First Minister, thank you very much indeed.

ALEX SALMOND: It’s a pleasure, thank you.