ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Let’s say a very good morning to the former Chancellor and Chair of the Better Together Campaign, Alistair Darling at the magnificent setting here at the velodrome. I want to talk about polling, we’ve got this YouGov poll. I want to turn this round ever so slightly, when you poll leaving Scotland out of the other nationals in the United Kingdom, you find that they’d be quite happy for Scotland to become independent by quite a large majority. You’ve got to convince them as well of the dangers as you see it of Scotland breaking away.

ALISTAIR DARLING: We do but I would just be a little bit wary about relying too much on one poll because there was a poll last week which polled right across the UK and found something rather different, that the majority of people did want Scotland to remain part of the UK. My view is that the whole country would be diminished if any one part of it left, we are far more than the sum of the parts, the four parts of the United Kingdom, but you’re right, the argument is one that I suspect will mount more south of the border because at the moment this debate about the referendum and about independence has largely been confined to Scotland but as we get closer to the date my guess is that there will be far more interest.

DM: The argument particularly in some quarters in England is that they feel that quite a lot of money goes from south to north across the border into Scotland and the rest of the UK, and certainly England, would be better off.

ALISTAIR DARLING: Actually if you look at it at different times, there have been flows at different times. If you take into account North Sea oil and if you take into account the way that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are funded, it works both ways but my point is though, the advantage for us, the opportunities that come from being part of something bigger in terms of jobs because we’ve got a bigger economy, in terms of the clout that we have in the European Union and other international organisations, as well as the bonds between the four countries, I think you have to think long and hard before throwing that away.

DM: What other polls, of course, and Scotland on Sunday has got one on its front page today, let me just pull that up here, ‘Surge in support for the yes vote to a new high’, do you feel the tide turning ever so slightly against your campaign?

ALISTAIR DARLING: No because if you look … you have to look at all the opinion polls you have, not just one particular one. What I would say though, and I’ve been saying this for some time, I do think that this referendum is going to be far closer than people think. If you look at the polls in the last year or so, people say look, the campaign against independence is far out in front but I think actually as we get closer to the reality of a referendum it will be closer. What of course people have to realise is that the result in September will be irrevocable. If Scotland votes to go then there is no going back, that’s it. That’s why it’s all to play for really.

DM: But don’t you have a difficulty, you’re saying no, a negative, you have to put a positive vision so what’s going to be better if you vote no?

ALISTAIR DARLING: Well of course you do. There are three very powerful arguments in support of us being better and stronger together, the overwhelming one is economic, you’ve got businesses that can sell freely into the rest of the UK, you don’t have a separate currency to worry about. In addition to that, you’ve got the security that comes from being part of something bigger. Remember when the banks collapsed five years ago, when I was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I was able to stop the banking system collapsing because I had the strength of the UK behind me. Ireland and Iceland who Alex Salmond used to quote as exemplars, if you like, they went bust. That’s what happens when small countries are exposed in times of stress.

DM: Well that’s very scary but that was a reality that happened, we accept that but …

ALISTAIR DARLING: Well it was a reality but you are dead right, you’ve got to be positive about this but I’ll say this …

DM: But it’s this issue of scare stories isn’t it? We know what the yes campaign is saying, last week we heard about the issue of borders and Alex Salmond, I was talking to him yesterday, the no campaign saying we are going to have to put up border posts and you are not going to be able to cross freely between England and Scotland. He says we are going to be part of a common travel area, nothing will change.

ALISTAIR DARLING: But you see, Alex Salmond’s who pitch is everything will change but don’t worry, nothing’s going to change. Now there isn’t a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland because we have the same immigration policy but Salmond is saying, no, no, Scotland is going to have a more liberal immigration regime, a more liberal asylum regime. You can’t have that but then say we’re not going to have any border controls.

DM: England could erect border controls. Scotland may not but England could.

ALISTAIR DARLING: And this is part of the problem, Alex Salmond asserts that…

DM: What will happen?

ALISTAIR DARLING: We don’t know what is going to happen but what we do know, and this is where I come on to the nationalist charges that … they say we are being negative whenever we ask them questions to which they don’t know the answer. Salmond asserts that we’re going to have a currency union, he simply says we’ll be able to keep the pound. Well you actually need both sides to agree to a currency union and if you oppose anything like rights earlier on, you then you can’t take it for granted that the rest of the UK would simply enter into an agreement.

DM: But why should England, why should the Bank of England, say you can’t be part of sterling?

ALISTAIR DARLING: If you understand what a currency union is, and you don’t have to imagine too hard, they have one in the eurozone. It means that both sides really have to have the same economic policy so both countries would potentially have a veto over what the other country was doing on their tax spending and borrowing and so on. Now you cannot assume that the rest of the UK, who have never been asked about this, are going to enter into a currency union where they would potentially, what would then be a foreign country, Scotland would have a veto over what they’re doing. The point is, we are being asked to sign up for something that after the 19th September, the day after the referendum, if we vote for independence nothing will stop us from becoming independent, we can’t go back. They can’t complain when we ask them searching questions especially because when we do they can’t come up with any convincing answers.

DM: I just want to play a clip to you that Mr Salmond said about your former boss, Tony Blair, when I spoke to him yesterday. It was rather interesting, he pointed out that Scotland already has a separate legal system and we know about his concerns, Alex Salmond’s concerns about the Iraq war and Mr Blair’s role in it. Let me play you the clip and see what you think. ALEX SALMOND: Yes, he was very worried when I was trying to get him impeached and somewhat annoyed and it was a very serious issue because I think there were huge questions to answer in terms of his role in the illegal war in Iraq, questions which still haven’t been answered and I note incidentally that someone tried to affect a citizen’s arrest on Mr Blair quite recently. But no, I think the basis on how we should pursue the investigation into the war in Iraq is to allow the inquiry which has been set up to take its course.

DM: Chilcot.

ALEX SALMOND: I am very hopeful because people are obviously anxious to see the results of that inquiry, as indeed I am,

DM: Mr Salmond there saying he wants how we pursue the illegality, as he puts it, of the war in Iraq, he said legal officers in Scotland are looking at his role in it. Should he have reason to fear through that different legal system?

ALISTAIR DARLING: I don’t think so. We’ve got the Chilcot Inquiry which is due to report I think some time this year but this is Salmond at it again. Rather than answering some pretty basic questions on currency, on Europe, whether or not he can get away with charging English students fees to come to universities, of course it suits him to open up a second front in relation to this but it has got precious little to do frankly with the big question that is facing Scottish voters in September of this year.

DM: I just wanted to ask you, you mentioned your time with the banks as the former Chancellor, I just wanted to ask you about an issue that affects the entirety of the UK at the moment, perhaps even if Scotland does go independent for the future, the 50p tax rate. You brought it in, the Conservatives got rid of it, Mr Balls says Labour if elected will bring it back. Do you think that is a wise idea and will it raise much money?

ALISTAIR DARLING: Yes, it’s part of the deficit reduction plan that he set out and I thought Ed Balls delivered a very good speech yesterday. In the context of reducing the deficit, he said that he wants to eliminate it during the course of the next parliament.

DM: But the economy is improving.

ALISTAIR DARLING: The economy is improving, we don’t know how well established that recovery is but …

DM: So why put up taxes then?

ALISTAIR DARLING: Because we are a long way, and both Conservative and Labour and Liberal for that matter would agree with this, we are a very long way from eliminating the deficit. Remember it was supposed to have been eliminated by next year and yet there is not a cat … there is no change of that happening. So I think in the context, when I increased the top rate of tax to 50p I did it on a temporary basis, I made it very clear that I didn’t see that as being a long-term position but the deficit reduction has taken far longer than anybody would want and when you talk about reducing the deficit, there are quite substantial cuts that are slated to come in after the next election and it just seems to me that we need to be fair about this so that people with the broadest shoulders carry their fair share of the burden.

DM: So this should be temporary as well?

ALISTAIR DARLING: Yes, I was very clear when I introduced this, this was part of dealing with the deficit that went up as a result of a financial crisis and as he said yesterday, he is talking about the next parliament because I think on any view it is probably going to take that long to do it.

DM: So what do you think of the timing of it, so far out from a general election? There Labour is saying we’re going to put up a tax, it is a very high rate, very rich people who will pay it only as course but nevertheless – and as you know, wily political operator you are – the opposition, opponents to Labour are able to say, okay, you’re putting up that tax, what else are you going to put up? Would you extend it further downwards? You’re a tax raising party.

ALISTAIR DARLING: Well look, Ed made it very clear we’re talking about the top rate of tax and it’s interesting actually that HMRC’s latest figures show that you’d raise about £10 billion more than the government claimed so I think, though I say it myself, the thing that we did five years ago was the right thing to do. In relation to the timing, you can always argue about this but I think Ed Balls is quite right, this is the last full year before the general election, to lay out proposals here in relation to deficit reduction and that’s how you have to see this particular tax in that context. Also other measures in relation to supporting business and getting growth going, the business investment bank rates and so on. We are about fifteen months away from a general election and I think this is absolutely the right time to do it. If you look back at when we were last in opposition, it was about that sort of timescale when Gordon Brown set out our fiscal plans so he is absolutely right to do that. I think what he said made a lot of sense.

DM: Okay, Mr Darling, thank you very much indeed. Alistair Darling from the Better Together campaign.