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SOPHY RIDGE: Now another partner that’s proving to be tricky for the government’s Brexit negotiations is of course Scotland and joining me now from Aberdeen is Alex Salmond, hello to you.  

ALEX SALMOND: Hello Sophy.

SR: So you’re going to be setting out your 50 amendments to the Article 50 Bill, now we certainly don’t have time to go through them all so can just try and give us the edited highlights?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it’s 50 amendments, that’s to give a sign that we intend to hold the government to account, that’s actually what oppositions are meant to be for.  Most of these amendments are the sorts of things that would be spelt out in a White Paper and the government has conceded it’s going to have a White Paper but bizarrely they say they are not going to have it till after the vote which is quite extraordinary.  If you cast your mind back to the independence referendum in Scotland, I published a 670 page White Paper but that was before people voted.  The government says they are going to have a White Paper after MPs vote on invoking Article 50 but there are two very big substantial amendments.  One is called the Reset Amendment and that says look, MPs shouldn’t be a in a position at some point in the next year or so where they can either vote on a really bad deal on negotiations or no deal, that’s no choice whatsoever so there should be a reset to the UK being in the EU on existing terms so that MPs don’t vote with a gun to their heads.  Secondly, there has to be agreement of the countries of the United Kingdom.  I mean Theresa May when she became Prime Minister said she was looking for an agreed UK position but she hasn’t done that and we have an amendment which says she won’t be able to invoke Article 50 until she does do that.

SR: I want to talk a bit more about this reset amendment that you are proposing which means that the UK will effectively stay on in the EU if no deal can be agreed.  That’s effectively just saying that you are never going to be able to get a good deal isn’t it?  Because surely what’s in the interests of the EU to give us a deal?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I don’t agree with that.  You see the problem that Theresa May – and let’s forget the fact that I’m a very strong supporter of Europe, I’m a strong supporter of Scotland but look at it from the point of view of a Brexiteer Prime Minister.  If she invokes Article 50, as she intends to do, without at least an outline of where she is going to arrive at, then she is in a position that all the EU negotiators have to do is not agree over the next two years and then the UK gets the worst deal of all which is a reversion to World Trade Organisation terms.  All of the negotiating power goes into the hands of the EU and the only reason we’ve got this ridiculous 31st March deadline is because it was something she dreamt up at the Tory party conference to try and hang the Tory party together.  Far, far better not to allow yourself to go into negotiation without at least an outline of where you’re going to get at the end of the day.

SR: The thing is though, some people will look at this, they’ll say that the SNP are threatening 50 amendments, you’re trying to stop Brexit happening, you’re trying to stop the democratic process that happens after the referendum was won.

ALEX SALMOND: Well of course the democratic process, you understand that the SNP pay attention to every single local authority area in the whole of this country of Scotland voted to remain in the European Union.

SR: But Scotland is part of the UK still, you lost the referendum.

ALEX SALMOND: Well Scotland is a nation, it’s a country not a county, we have national rights but if Theresa May wants to come to terms with Scotland, as she promised to do when she said she would have an agreed position, then all she has to do is accept the compromise position which has been put forward by Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, and allow Scotland the flexibility of remaining in the single marketplace after Brexit.  Now remember, we know there is going to be a special deal for the car industry in Sunderland, they will be a special deal for Northern Ireland, there’s one for the Channel Islands, there is going to have to be one for Gibraltar.  If it’s good enough for the car industry in Sunderland then surely it’s good enough for the nation of Scotland.

SR: Now if none of your amendments do get passed, which is definitely possible, the EU leaves the EU and it leaves the single market, do you feel that a second Scotland referendum is inevitable and if so, when’s it going to happen?  One senior SMP this week suggested autumn 2018, is that about right?

ALEX SALMOND: Well if Theresa May bulldozes her way and says we’re not staying in the single market, there’ll be no concessions and then says we won’t pay any attention to Scotland and Scottish jobs, Scottish investment, then as the First Minister has said, an independence, a renewed independence referendum becomes very likely and in my view it should be held within the two year period so Scotland would have the option of a continuous membership of the EU or certainly of the European Economic Area.  That would be the sensible and logical time to have it.

SR: But you are going to have to choose at some point aren’t you because there is no way that Scotland can be in the single market of the EU and also be in the single market of the UK, you are going to have to make a decision on that at some point?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I don't think that’s correct incidentally.  If you look at the proposal Nicola Sturgeon has put forward, it argues that you can be within the single marketplace and still be within the UK customs union and there’s an exact analogy for that in Europe at the present moment between Lichtenstein and Switzerland.  Lichtenstein and Switzerland are in a monetary union, a customs union, a passport union but Lichtenstein is within the European Economic Area and the single marketplace and Switzerland is not.  It’s a wee bit rich for unionists to tell us something can’t be done when there is already working examples of exactly that elsewhere in Europe.  We just have to have the political imagination to try and meet the interests of the Scottish people and that’s the proposal that Nicola Sturgeon has put forward.

SR: Now I’m quite keen to talk to you about Donald Trump, the President of the United States and I think it’s fair to say that you two haven’t always been the best of friends, I think Mad Alex is the term he likes to describe, to speak of you.  So what do you make of his first week’s work in the White House and in particular of course this ban on people entering the US from Muslim majority countries?

ALEX SALMOND: Perhaps there should be a moral tale for Theresa May.  I went from, according to Donald Trump, the greatest politician in the world which is how he described me, to Mad Alex destroying Scotland with no intervening period whatsoever.  He is a very, very difficult person to stay on good terms with.  There was a moment yesterday which tested Theresa May’s mettle, when she stood with President Erdogan and she was asked by Sky News I think, three times the cock crowed to condemn his shameful actions and the blanket ban on people from Muslim states going to the United States, with all the misery and confusion that’s causing and she refused to do so.  That was a shameful moment not just for Donald Trump, I mean we have begun to expect these sorts of actions from him, but a shameful moment of cowardice from the UK Prime Minister and it shows just how much you can go into thrall to such a person if you’ve been dealing with him from a position of weakness, as Theresa May is.

SR: And just very briefly, Mr Salmond, with that in mind do you think that the offer of the state visit to the UK for President Trump should now be withdrawn?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I think it’s a very bad idea and I don't think you should be rushing into a headlong relationship with the President of the United States, I mean quite clearly his first week in office has indicated that.  As for the suggestions from the Trump office that we read this morning, he doesn’t want to meet Prince Charles.  Very few people come to this country on a state visit and decide which members of the Royal Family they shall and shan’t meet and that is just an indication of the enormous difficulties you get into when you hold somebody tight who is unpredictable, who has a range of views you find unacceptable and the one thing I can tell you about Donald Trump – and absolutely this is from personal experience – you should never, ever, ever negotiate or deal with Donald Trump from a position of weakness and that is exactly what Theresa May has been doing.

SR: Okay, Alex Salmond, thank you.