ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: I’m joined now in the studio by the Labour MP Chuka Umunna, thanks for being with us.

CHUKA UMUNNA: A pleasure, good to be on your new show.

SR: Thanks.  What we’ve been hearing there from voters in Cambridge, lots of them very worried about what happens with Brexit, in your own constituency Lib Dem membership has doubled since the referendum, do you think Labour are failing people who voted Remain in that vote?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I wouldn’t go that far and the VT we just saw there, the video package is interesting because it shows what we know about Remain voters, that they are split.  Just over half of Remain voters are of the view that look, the result is the result, it was forged under a set of rules that we all agreed to and now we make the best of a bad job, secure the best deal for Britain and just under half, as the lady round the table there was saying are in the camp of second referendum, people were lied to, can’t accept the result.  Now my own view is as a democrat I accepted the rules under which that referendum was fought, in fact I didn’t receive any correspondence from constituents and I have one of the highest Remain votes in Lambeth, no correspondence from constituents saying that there shouldn’t be a referendum and challenging the rules so I think it is very hard to stand in front of the will of the people as expressed in a national result from happening.  But that said, I think when people will look back at this in history, it’s going to be more a question of what did you do on the referendum battlefield as opposed to exactly what you did in the aftermath and the fact is if you look during that referendum campaign last year, the members of the Shadow Cabinet then, Tom Watson our Deputy Leader, Angela Eagle, Heidi Alexander and others fought a very strong campaign during that referendum for us to stay in and of course Labour In For Britain had Alan Johnson, myself and others, we all worked hard to get the best result but unfortunately we lost and there would be no Article 50 were it not for the fact that we lost that referendum.

SR: At the same time if you are talking about what people did on the battlefield, you voted in favour of Article 50, completely unamended, no Labour amendments got through and I just want to drill down to why you did that.  You had previously said for example that leaving the single market is an act of self-harm that would tank the economy, why did you vote for an act of self-harm then?

CHUKA UMUNNA: That’s right, the problem … well I voted to implement a national poll and a democratic result in a referendum but of course the idea that we were going to be able to stand in front of a government majority when we don’t have a majority in the House of Commons, to suggest that somehow we would easily be able to get amendments through would be completely disingenuous but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have tabled amendments.  I tabled one for example on the pledge made by many Conservatives to put £350 million extra per week into the NHS after we had voted to leave the European Union.  Now in the end they went back on their word and voted against that amendment.  I was a co-signatory to Harriet Harman’s amendment to ensure that EU citizens have the right to stay there.  Now just because we were not going to be able to secure those amendments, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have made the argument and one of the interesting things, in Cambridge somebody was talking about we should have capitalised on these things but the interesting thing about the Liberal Democrats who see themselves as potentially a challenger in Cambridge is let’s not forget, the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party was just as split as the Labour parliamentary party through the passage of the Article 50 Bill in the House of Commons and of course the Liberal Democrats were attacking the Labour MP  Daniel Zeitner in Cambridge for campaigning against having a referendum, they wanted this referendum in the first place so I think the real challenge, Sophy, for all of us as parties is look, our country is clearly divided but are we going to try and bring the country back together or are we going to do things that exacerbate divisions and I think saying look, we’re going to ignore the result of this referendum, we are going to carry on as if all those who voted Leave are somehow bigoted racist people who believe their lies, I think that will divide our country.

SR: We’re not …

CHUKA UMUNNA: They are no more bigots and racists than the people who voted to Remain are metropolitan elite liberals.

SR: We’re not talking about ignoring the result of the referendum here, we’re talking about to shape the vision of Brexit and it does feel to many Remain supporters that this week Labour handed the government a blank cheque.  Let’s have a quick look here at what you said last month, “I’m not going to give Theresa May a blank cheque” but this week you voted through an unamended Article 50 Bill giving Theresa May a licence therefore to go forward with her version of Brexit.  I mean that sounds a lot like a blank cheque doesn’t it?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well no, it’s not.  Let’s not forget I put down an amendment on the NHS, I was a co-signatory to an amendment to keep us in the single market, I was a co-signatory to an amendment to ensure that EU citizens have the right to stay in the UK after we leave the EU but of course Article 50 and the referendum is one thing but the deal is another.  The negotiations haven’t even started and I think there are four key things that the Labour party should be focusing on: performing our role as a strong opposition, holding the government to account very much with the 2020 General Election in mind because let’s not forget what they promised, what the Conservative party said in 2015. They said if we hold this referendum and you vote to leave it is not going to harm our economy, we need to hold them to account for that.  Second, they are absolutely focused on reducing immigration, that means that they need to make sure that the UK workforce has the skills and the wherewithal to do the jobs the businesses feel they need to hire people to do from outside the UK.  We need to absolutely overhaul our skill system, they are nowhere close to doing that.  Then thirdly, they’ve said if we leave the European Union after we hold this referendum, there will be more money for public services.  So those are three key things that the Labour party must now hold these people, these Tories to account for and let’s not forget, if all we have on the table is a bad deal as Theresa May is kind of hinting at could happen, that will be her responsibility because above all they have said if we hold this referendum, which they did, with no plan for what would happen after we left the European Union they said they will get a good deal so if only a bad deal is on the table that will be the responsibility of the Conservative government and these are the issues, in the end it will be competent management of this negotiation process which will be core to the 2020 general election, not whether you will remain or leave but in the end did you competently manage this negotiation process – and we would have done it differently – and in so doing competently manage the economy.  Those are the key issues I think.

SR:  I’m interested in getting your thoughts on another story that’s been in the newspapers today about Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary, who of course voted for Article 50 this week, it’s reported that David Davis tried to give her a hug afterwards, the Brexit Secretary and then he denied that, according to the Mail on Sunday in a text to a colleague to say he wouldn’t have done it ‘Because I’m not blind’.  Now that sounds pretty sexist doesn’t it, particularly if it is directed to the first black female MP, someone who suffered from lots of abuse online.

CHUKA UMUNNA: I think it’s sexist, I think it’s misogynistic and he should apologise, it’s appalling.  Diane has also been subject to the most terrible racist abuse by a Conservative councillor who I understand is currently suspended.  This type of behaviour has absolutely no place in the Conservative party or in British politics full stop.  David Davis is a member of the Cabinet, this is a member of the Cabinet, what does it say about that party to the country to your viewers if he is coming out with this kind of thing about a very respected long-serving member of the House of Commons?

SR: Well of course the offer is there for David Davis, if he does want to come on the show and give his side of what happened with Diane Abbott.  Now let’s talk polls because the polls are looking pretty disastrous for Labour at the moment.  The Conservatives have led in the last 67 of those polls and you have a leader who is more disliked than liked with every single voter group.  I think we can just have a quick look at a poll from this week which shows what is Labour voters opinion of Jeremy Corbyn and more Labour voters have an unfavourable than a favourable opinion of their own leader.  Is it time for him to go, particularly bearing in mind that there’s polling going on by the Labour party we understand of potential successors?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Look, we’ve got two by-elections coming up in a few weeks…

SR: I am quite interested to talk about Jeremy Corbyn’s future.

CHUKA UMUNNA: I know you are, I know you are but  I think talk of changing leader, leadership bids and what have you right now when we’ve got these two by-elections in mind and also a swathe of local and regional elections in May wouldn’t be very helpful.  Of course we’ve got to do better but that isn’t just about the leader, that is about the party and what we’re saying to the people and part of the reason …

SR: So if Labour do lose then in Copeland or Stoke, these two by-elections that you’re talking about, that will be the first time an opposition lost to a government in 35 years, if that happens is that then time for Jeremy Corbyn to consider his position?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I don't accept the premise of the question because we’ve got two fantastic candidates in Copeland and in Stoke on Trent.  I was in Stoke on Trent last week and I am confident that we will be able to get the results there and then we have to march on to ensure we get the results in May but I think the fundamental way that the Labour party will be able to recover its position – and I’m not going to be disingenuous with you Sophy, the polls have been terrible and you need to be doing better than that to form a majority at the next general election but I think the core for the Labour party in the way we build our support again is not a return to New Labour.  That was appropriate for its time but we’re in a different era now, not to return to the Labour party of the 70s and the 80s, old Labour, we need something that is appropriate for this time and what we know is that our country has gone through a huge amount of change due to technology, due to the way global country’s economies are coming together and this is causing a huge amount of insecurity.  It is giving lots of opportunity to some but it is exacerbating inequalities and reducing access to opportunities for others.  Now we have to …

SR: I don’t disagree with your summary of the situation there but if you look at the polls, people don’t feel that Jeremy Corbyn appears, even Labour voters, as tackling those issues. Do you think it’s right then that some succession planning should be going on?

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, because I think what we have to do is to get back to the fundamentals and the issue for the Labour party is that we have to reconnect to our core purpose which is not only to help and protect those who cannot work and protect themselves but to ensure that we speak for the mainstream majority of working people in this country.  We have to give people the confidence that we will do that and also they want to see in our party their values respected, their love of their family, the importance of their community, the love of their country and that’s why going down a Remain/Leave prism, going for the 48% or the 52% makes no sense because in the end it’s those core values which everybody holds dear regardless of how you voted in last year’s referendum and it is those values which are things that we coalesce around, that’s how we heal the divisions in our country.  Now if we can’t heal the divisions in the historic voting coalition that makes a Labour government happen – people in Streatham, people in Cambridge, people in Hull, people in Hampstead – then we won’t be able to get back into office but my gosh, if we are able to do that within the Labour party then we will show that we’re fit for government and do you know what, I have no doubt that we can do that in the next general election.  I believe inherently because I know our values are the best values and they deliver for working people and they, in the end, regardless of your creed, colour, race or background, will ensure that you can access the opportunities that this new world is bringing. That’s why I’m confident and optimistic about Labour’s future.

SR: You’ve made quite a speech there, it sounds a bit like a leadership manifesto?

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, I just believe in my party.  I’m a Labour person and in the end … one of the things I’ve hated about past Labour leadership contests that we’ve had is this idea that somehow you either choose your values and what you believe in or you choose power and office and I’ve always believed ultimately that we can only make our values real as a Labour party if we get into government.  But like I said, the value of work, the value of people’s communities, their love for their family and love for the country – they see that in the Labour party, they will vote for us.

SR: You obviously ran in 2015 and pulled out three days later, you then didn’t step forward when Owen Smith and Angela Eagle tried to dislodge Jeremy Corbyn …

CHUKA UMUNNA: I’m afraid I was on my honeymoon.

SR: Do you think you are getting a reputation of chickening out?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I don't think so.  Look, I don't think you go into politics to be part of some soap opera, in the end you go into politics to change things and I want to play a big role in a future Labour government but how that turns out in the future is anyone’s guess but right now, as I’ve said, the Labour party shouldn’t be focusing on leadership bids and future leaders, it should be focusing on winning these two by-elections that we’ve got coming up, winning the county council elections and also the Mayoral elections that are coming up in May and using that as a springboard to get back into office but as I said, in the end people will judge us not just by the alternative we’re offering but how this government does and it won’t be whether you are Remain or Leave, it’s how they competently manage the process of our withdrawal from the European Union.  All the signs are at the moment is that they want to turn us into the sweatshop of Europe, they want to turn us into a grand tax haven for the rich multi-nationals and that’s not going to provide the answers and we have to make sure that people know that.

SR: Well we won’t have too long before we get voters verdicts in Stoke and Copeland so we’ll have to see what happens there.  Chuka Umunna, thanks very much.

CHUKA UMUNNA: Thank you Sophy.