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SOPHY RIDGE:  Joining me in the studio is the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, hello and thank you for being with us.  Before we move on to the other issues I’m quite keen to get your thoughts on the report we just watched about anti-Semitism within the Labour party or allegations of it.  I was really struck when speaking to some of the Jewish community that they feel almost a sense of personal betrayal, that Labour is a party that they felt allied to for many decades …  

JOHN McDONNELL: It was their party.  

SR: Yes, it was their party and now they feel that that’s changed, do you think they have a point?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s a tragedy, an absolute tragedy, I could weep about it, I really could because I have spoken to a number of those people as well and the other tragedy is that we are now led by someone who is possibly one of the foremost anti-racist campaigners that we’ve had in our political history, his parents, Jeremy Corbyn’s parents met in the Cable Street campaign which was to defend the Jewish community against the fascists so I think we’ve got to open the dialogue again and overcome these problems.  I believe our party – and I don’t believe in being complacent about this – I believe our party is still the anti-racist party that I joined.  I think there is anti-Semitism in our community and it will pervade all our institutions and we’ve got to root it out.  The shock to me is the figures, last year 1300 anti-Semitic incidents, hate crimes reported across our whole community.  Now Labour should be at the forefront of confronting that, instead we’re involved in this internal, well internal examination and exploration of what’s been going on in the last twelve months around Ken Livingstone.  We’ve got to close that down and move on.

SR: With Ken Livingstone, I’m interested in your own personal view here not the party line, do you think he should have been expelled from the party?   

JOHN McDONNELL: Look, Ken Livingstone last year, I made it clear to him he should have apologised immediately and he didn’t …

SR: He didn’t he went and repeated …

JOHN McDONNELL: And I was quite angry about that.  I’ve known Ken, I was his deputy on the GLC, we’ve worked together, we’ve fallen out a number of times as well but I’m always straight with him, he should have apologised.  This came about because my Parliamentary Private Secretary Naz Shah made a statement which was appalling about sending Jews from Israel to America.  I immediately asked her to stand down and she did.  What did she do?  She apologised immediately, realised the mistake that she’d made and was shocked by it, apologised immediately, met the Jewish community and has been applauded since for learning the lesson.  That’s what I want Ken to do. There is a thing within the Jewish faith that was transferred as well into the Christian religion which is honest contrition followed by forgiveness and reconciliation, that’s what I wanted to happen.  That’s what I want to happen now quite honestly.

SR: But I am still a bit unclear though, do you think he should have been expelled because he hasn’t apologised has he?  

JOHN McDONNELL: I think people are surprised at what happened out of the hearings that took place, I’d like to know what legal advice was provided.  What will now happen is that the NEC will consider this matter again and there will be further consideration of the matter. I’m not saying anything now that will prejudge that or prejudice what will come out of it.  My advice to Ken again, and I say this as an old ally of his, apologise.  This argument about historical fact is not the issue, the issue is that you deployed it to justify what was an anti-Semitic statement by Naz Shah, just apologise now and I’ll tell you, Jewish members of the community will accept contrition and will forgive and move on but until we get some form of apology I don't think we can.  The behaviour of the last week, it’s hard to come to terms with.  We’ve got to get out there as a party campaigning against racism in our society, anti-Semitism is on the rise which is appalling but also only a month ago, a few weeks ago, 30 people pounced upon a young asylum seeker and nearly kicked him to death.  Our party should be leading the campaign to attack racism in our society and we’ve been diverted into this and we’ve got to re-establish our credentials as an anti-racist party.

SR: Now moving on, I’m keen to get your views on the other really pressing issue this week which is Syria.  We’ve seen the Defence Secretary coming out today to say Russia is responsible by proxy for the 87 deaths in that chemical attack in Syria, is he right?

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well what we should have had immediately, rather than Trump going to bombing, we should have an immediate inquiry about, well about the use of sarin gas again by …

SR: But is Russia responsible do you think?  

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well I think that Russia has a role to play because they’ve propped up the Assad regime all the way through but the only way I think we’re going to get rid of Assad is what was happening before the bombing is that actually for the first time the US and Russia begin to build a relationship in which a strategy around Syria could be developed. The bombing I think has set that back.  What I think should have happened is a proper inquiry under UN auspices then a debate within the UN and then the UN used to develop the strategy for peace negotiations, peace in Syria.  What we’ve got to do now from our country, the UK, we can play a role in that by putting pressure on all sides now to get back to the Geneva talks.

SR: You talk about the UN, everyone of course would love to see some kind of UN resolution, agreement going forward but let’s get real, it’s not going to happen is it?  Russia has already vetoed …

JOHN McDONNELL: No, it isn’t, immediately it isn’t but it’s bizarre.  This Trump and Putin relationship that was developing could have enabled us I think to step back from the bombing, rather than immediately bomb and have a proper inquiry and drawn Russia in.  I actually think there is no way we’ll get rid of Assad unless there is Russian agreement and I think the potential there has been destroyed as a result of this bombing.

SR: In response to those US airstrikes that were launched, we’ve had some rather different response should we say from people within your own party.  The Deputy Leader Tom Watson welcomed it as a direct and proportionate response, Jeremy Corby, the leader, said it risked intensifying a multi-sided conflict, which side are you on?

JOHN McDONNELL: Jeremy’s because I believe that there shouldn’t have been bombing.  

SR: So was Tom Watson wrong then?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think he was but look, Tom’s disagreed with us on the bombing of Syria all the way through and we had a free vote last year and he took a different view and I respect that view, I don’t condemn him, I respect it but it’s a different view from both mine and Jeremy’s and others within the party.  We believe that the bombing was precipitous, there should have been a proper investigation, hopefully then the start of the Geneva talks once again.  This may have set us back, I’m hoping it hasn’t but the talks have got to start soon.  We will not get a settlement in Syria as a result of bombing, we’ll get a negotiated settlement at some stage and if we can bring Russia onside in due course that means a settlement without Assad.

SR:  It’s very hopeful isn’t it, we’ll bring Russia onside?  

JOHN McDONNELL: It is but at the same time what you’ve got to do is judge every step so that you do not alienate potential allies for the future.  The bombing I think has set us back, it was precipitous and I think it could have been handled with more care certainly because of the Trump new relationship with Putin that was developing.  

SR: Now the bombing though was a direct response to a deadly chemical weapons attack that killed 87 people including children …

JOHN McDONNELL: Which was appalling.

SR: Which was absolutely appalling as you say.  I am just trying to rack my brains and think of any time when Labour would be prepared to intervene because at the moment it feels there is almost no point in having an army if there was a Labour government.  

JOHN McDONNELL: No, I’m not a pacifist, we’re not a pacifist party but what you have to do is …

SR: So when would you … ?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well you have to take a judgement about when physical force is necessary and you’ve got to exhaust every other avenue.  Here’s the tragedy today, America has bombed as the result of gas and yet Syria, Assad is bombing again today with barrel bombs again so actually it hasn’t stopped the bombing, in fact it might have actually put off the opportunity for a negotiated settlement.  My view is that there should have been time for a proper inquiry, the results of that inquiry properly exposed, negotiations and back to Geneva. I think there’s potential there, we’ve got to get back to that and that’s why I think actually Boris Johnson should be in Moscow now, I think she should be there.

SR: So he was wrong then?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think he was, I think he should be in Moscow now saying to the Russians just how appalling the situation is and the role that they should play.  We have got to be frank with them and we shouldn’t just allow the Americans to go off and do that, we should be doing that ourselves …

SR: Do you think he has effectively bowed to pressure from America then?

JOHN McDONNELL: I don't know, we need to ask him that and he needs to be honest with us about that as well and they need to be straightforward but look, we shouldn’t be … well we shouldn’t be basically being directed by America, but whether we are or not he should be there making the case to Russia, condemning them of course but also saying the proof in whether or not they are serious about future peace is back to Geneva and the talks. He should be saying that on our behalf firmly.

SR: Now local elections are looming, Labour’s polling is – let’s be blunt – pretty terrible at the moment.  Let’s have a look at … oh sorry, I’ve just been told we don’t have the graphic screen, always very smooth running here as always!  But what I was going to say is that last week Jeremy Corbyn said to a reporter when asked about his leadership, it’s your responsibility to make sure the opposition voice is heard, it’s your failings.  Do you think the media is to blame for Labour being 20 points behind in the poll?

JOHN McDONNELL: What Jeremy was saying was the media should now report us accurately and report us fairly.  There have been a number of independent reports …

SR: He said it quite forcefully, it’s your fault.

JOHN McDONNELL: I know, I know, that’s because he was interrupted so often and actually no one was actually talking about the real issues.  We had an audience there who were getting up and asking real questions about what’s happening in schools, the closure of Sure Start centres by the Conservatives, the loss of 50,000 teachers last year – those serious issues were being raised and unfortunately all the number of reporters were talking about was Jeremy Corbyn’s standing in the polls.  What he quite rightly said is let’s talk about the real issues that concern people.

SR: But if you want to deal with those real issues you have to improve your standing don’t you?

JOHN McDONNELL: Of course we do, of course we do.  Remember, when Jeremy took over we were 12 to 14 points behind in the polls anyway and …

SR: The polls, the polls?  There was one poll I think, are you seriously saying that the average of the polls was …

JOHN McDONNELL: What I am saying is that before he took over we were well behind in the polls as well and in his first six months actually we got to a situation where we were either just behind or virtually level with the Tories and then we had another leadership election, yet again – I’m hoping that they’re not becoming annual – another leadership election, and people won’t vote for a party that looks divided so what we’re saying to our own party is we’ve got to unite, we’ve got to present a united front because the issues we’re raising, what’s interesting is when you polls the issues and our policies they are extremely popular so what’s preventing people translating that into strength in the polls?  It is partly because they see us as divided so if we unite, which I think we are doing now on a number of issues particularly around Brexit, you’ll see us rise in the polls.

SR: Now one last question and I’m interested to get your answer on this, when you were first appointed Shadow Chancellor I think people were expecting a kind of radical manifesto, it hasn’t quite worked out like that has it?  In fact some of your policies are almost to the right of Ed Miliband so what’s happened?  Has the Socialist firebrand been tamed?

JOHN McDONNELL: [Laughs] What’s happened has been I’ve engaged in I suppose one of the most, the biggest engagement processes with our members and with the electorate over the last 12 months, listening to them, talking to them about the real issues.

SR: So have you tamed your views in order to reflect what others think then?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, so what I’m saying is I have been touring round the country for the last 18 months, listening to people and what their ideas are, floating some of the ideas that we’ve got and preparing I think an extremely radical programme.  You’ll see that rolled out in the next few months and I believe actually it won’t just be radical but it will demonstrate actually the popularity of it as well.  Just look at what happened last week when we suggested free school means and I’d pay for them by VAT on school fees.

SR: But that’s just an extension of what the coalition’s policy was.

JOHN McDONNELL: But it was radical in the sense that we’re implementing it on the basis of a redistribution of wealth and that’s what it is and that’s as a party what we’re about, it’s the redistribution of wealth and power from those who are basically the richest in our country, the most powerful to the rest of the people and that’s the radical programme you’ll be seeing rolled out between now and the next election.

SR: Okay, a radical programme to come.  John McDonnell, thank you very much.