ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: The Brexit battle returns to parliament next week and there is growing speculation that the Prime Minister could trigger Article 50 as early as Tuesday, that of course is the formal notification that the UK is leaving the EU but of course they have got to get that legislation through parliament first so will Labour help or hinder the process?  Well let’s ask the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Sir Keir Starmer, thank you very much for being with us this morning.  So all the whispers in Westminster are that Article 50 could be triggered next week, if of course it manages to pass through parliament.  What’s Labour going to do?  Are you going to back the House of Lords amendments or are you going to row back to allow Brexit to be passed without delay?

KEIR STARMER: Oh the House of Lords amendments are Labour amendments, they’re the ones that I drafted and argued for in the House of Commons, worked with the House of Lords team on …

SR: But even if it means that Brexit is delayed, you are still going to be sticking to them?

KEIR STARMER: Well we are arguing this tomorrow and the amendments are really simple but they are really, really important.   The first one is to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are in this country, these are people who have not just contributed to our society, they are part of our society and they have been left in limbo and we are asking the government to sort that out quickly.  The second one makes sure that parliament has a vote in the deal in two years’ time and a lot of the stories this weekend are about the prospects of crashing out without a deal. That would be a disaster and you absolutely have to have a vote in parliament before that could possibly happen so we will be fighting for those tomorrow.  Nonetheless, I think the government is preparing to trigger Article 50 probably on Wednesday or Thursday.  What we say to the Prime Minister, and I wrote to her on Friday to say, reflect on what the House of Lords has said by majorities of nearly a hundred. They’ve sent back two really important issues, this issue of the EU nationals and the issue of the vote, reflect on it. Don’t just have this obsession with getting Article 50 triggered this week and an obsession with what they call a clean bill, they’ve got this obsession that the bill mustn’t be amended even where the amendments are sensible.

SR: You were very keen of course on the amendment about EU citizens which is something that the Prime Minister has certainly hinted that they want to do anyway.  You are also talking about the no deal scenario, that’s a contingency plan, that’s not Plan A, that’s plan B.  For the actual substance of what the government want to do on Brexit it appears you are not really providing very much opposition at all, you are just saying it’s fine, let’s wave it through, even though the economists say it could be disastrous for the UK.

KEIR STARMER: No, no, no, I don't think that’s right at all.  We’ve said first and foremost that dividing line, our priority is the economy and jobs.  The Prime Minister has said her priority is immigration and having nothing to do with the European Court.

SR: But you’ve accepted leaving a single market and you want to get the best possible deal the same as the government.

KEIR STARMER: Well so far as the single market is concerned, I’ve talked to hundreds of businesses up and down the country, I’ve been all over the UK and what they’ve said to me is very, very clear and it’s shared by trade unionists, it’s that we want tariff free access to the single market, that we want something that doesn’t involve new barriers, a deal that works for services and what’s called regulatory alignment, which really matters.  Now they are the key issues, they are the key attributes if you like of the single market and we’ve been pushing for those from day one.  So this suggestion that we haven’t said our priorities are different and we’re not fighting for different … we’ve also said all workplace rights, all the rights that we enjoyed because we have been members of the EU must be lifted lock, stock and barrel and be put into our law – no limitations, no qualifications and no time limits.  So there are really big dividing lines here that we’re fighting over for the foreseeable future.

SR: You say it’s big dividing lines but from what you are saying you want tariff free access, presumably controls over immigration as well, that is something that Labour has said before – it sounds a bit like you wasn’t to have your cake and eat it and you are criticising the government for pointing out actually it might be a bit more complicated than that.  

KEIR STARMER: Well look, we are negotiating now for the future of the UK, its place in Europe and it’s place in the UK, of course I want the best possible deal.  You wouldn’t expect me to come on here and argue that we didn’t want the best for our country.  We think this has got to be sensibly placed.  Now we say fight for the right Article 50 deal, be honest about transitional arrangements which are going to be needed for some years and then a final EU/UK arrangement that works for trade with those attributes I’ve mentioned but also is underpinned by really important values.  We believe, Labour believes, that international issues and problems and challenges are best deal with internationally so that’s collaboration and co-operation.  I think a lot of people are really worried about science, technology, medicine, education, counter-terrorism – my old world – where we need to be collaborative and co-operative so let’s do it in stages.  Article 50, transitional and then a meaningful and full collaborative and final relationship and that’s what we’ll be arguing for.

SR: A lot of people in your own party think you should have been tougher on the single market.  There are about 30 MPs who have written a letter this morning accusing you of a lack of ambition for not signing up to a single market membership like Norway.  Have you just rolled over on that?

KEIR STARMER: Well I’m sympathetic to the idea about the single market, there are tremendous legal and political problems with continued membership of the single market.  One of the rules that you have to accept if you have continued membership is that EU law will be primary over our law for as long as you are in the single market.  Now at the moment I can argue for that because we’ve got MEPs in the European Parliament, we’ve got our representative in the European Council, that’s pooled sovereignty and I’m in favour of that. Once we leave our MEPs will leave that Parliament.  Now Parliament continues to make laws and if we are members of the single market those laws are primary over our own laws and so no legislation without representation is a principle which shouldn’t be breached lightly.  As I say, I am sympathetic to those that think single market membership is really important, that’s why I’ve said forget whether it’s membership, access, participation, any number of descriptions – what really matters to business are the four things I’ve outlined and that’s why we are fighting for those and businesses are absolutely arguing with us on this.

SR: Now when Article 50 is triggered it is very likely that the SNP will call for a second referendum in Scotland, I just want to have a look at what your leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said about the prospect of a second referendum.  He said, “If a referendum is held, then that is absolutely fine.”  Is it absolutely fine to have a second referendum in Scotland?

KEIR STARMER: I support the approach that Kezia Dugdale, our leader in Scotland, has been arguing with for years and …

SR: So you don’t think it is particularly fine?

KEIR STARMER: … I think Jeremy himself has put out a statement today and Kezia has been clear, no second referendum and focus on what really matters for Scotland at the moment.

SR: It’s unhelpful isn’t it, for Labour in Scotland, to hear it being talked about in such flippant …

KEIR STARMER: As I say, I think Jeremy has put out a new statement this morning just clarifying the approach that he adopts and it is following Kezia’s approach that she has consistently argued for in Scotland.  

SR: Okay, so perhaps moving on quickly from the language used there in that case, Scotland is really a symptom for a wider issue for Labour isn’t it and Brexit  feeding into that is a bit of a nightmare scenario because you have a situation where 70% of Labour constituencies voted to leave but about two-thirds of Labour voted said that they wanted to remain, it really is sounding as though it has all the makings of an existential crisis that can rip the party apart.  I mean what’s the solution?

KEIR STARMER: Well it is difficult and …

SR: That’s an understatement isn’t it?

KEIR STARMER: Yes, obviously we do have the fact that two-thirds of our MPs broadly speaking are in leave constituencies and one third in remain constituencies and that means that they have different priorities as we go forward but I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, the Labour party aspires to govern and if you aspire to govern you cannot simply argue for just the 52% or just the 48%, you have got to be able to argue for the 100% and that means accepting and respecting the outcome of the referendum, that’s the first thing but the second thing is reminding ourselves why we campaigned to stay in the EU and that’s because we believe in collaboration and co-operation with our EU partners, so we can argue I think that we accept the outcome, that we want a new and changed relationship with our EU partners that is underpinned by those values.  In that way we can bring the party together as we redefine the future for the UK and for the party.

SR: That is quite an optimistic vision in some ways …

KEIR STARMER: Of course it is.

SR: I mean you had the disastrous result in Copeland, you are 19 points behind in the polls, at what point do you need to start looking at your leader?  I think we can have a look at something that you reportedly said about Jeremy Corbyn at a recent meeting of Parliamentary Labour Party, “You can’t keep making excuses.”  Are you making excuses for Jeremy Corbyn by not being frank about what his leadership means?

KEIR STARMER: I haven’t been making excuses for Jeremy, myself or the party, I’ve been realistic.  I’ve been pointing out that we are minus 18% in the polls and it is a position we absolutely need to change.  I’ve had a frank discussion with Jeremy about that, Jeremy acknowledges that but it is all our responsibility to get the Labour party from where it is to where it needs to be and I’m up for that fight.  Of course I’m optimistic about it, I’m here to change things not to concede.

SR: Interesting you say you’re up for the fight because quite often we ask people on social media to suggest questions for the guests we have on the show and I just want to read you this one from a man called [Colin de Grinton] who says please ask Keir when he will run for leader, God knows we need him to.  Are you going to stand up?

KEIR STARMER:  I’ve been an MP for 22 months, we’ve been through two leadership elections already, I think that’s unprecedented, the last one only ended six months’ ago.  I think what we have got to do now is to pull together to get the Labour party into a position where it can win elections but I’m absolutely committed that we do need to get ourselves into that position.  You can’t change lives unless you’re in power and I came into this to change lives.

SR: Very diplomatically answered.  Sir Keir Starmer, thank you very much.